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Repeat rebuild of Allison Gear Box

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by Kafue, Jan 14, 2014.

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  1. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Advice Please!
    Another failure on Allison Gearbox.
    The Port side gearbox (MH20) failed last year (forward gear) and was rebuilt.
    At the time a new Hydreco oil pump was also installed.
    The boat has been run around 20 hours since then.
    In Queensland the fishing season has kicked off and I had the boat hauled, polished, propspeed etc.
    Then, together with a mechanic friend, I serviced both engines, new filters, oil etc. But did not service the GB as it had only a few hours on it.

    Last week, the boat was running perfectly. Engines have never run better, all gears fine. Until the next morning when the anchor was lifted. The Forward gear would NOT fully engage, except in idle.
    I immediately checked the GB oil pressure. It read 40 psi in FWD.
    Checked oil & it was dry.
    Filled with 40w oil and pressure momentarily went to 155psi in gear, but still would not go past idle.
    Then pressure was back to 40 psi. I shut down the engine & returned home on the Stbd motor.

    The guys who rebuilt the gearbox came next day. They are very experienced with Allison’s and Detroit’s.
    We checked the Hydreco, it was running perfect.
    Cannot find any leaks.
    Oil in the engine “seems” slightly higher than when I last checked.
    Checked the filter in the 3 bolt flange fitting & found a small amount of clutch material but a lot of lint type material.
    Gear selector was removed & tested, it is good.
    All cables are working properly.

    Lifted the gearbox off the engine & disassembled.
    Clutch plate is still good, with very little wear.
    Pressure plate has some burnt spots.
    All bearings, gaskets & seals were good.
    We shaved a thousandth off the back of the flywheel to the back of crank, just in case, even though it showed no damage.
    The mechanics have spent the last week looking for a cause/problem.


    In short, we cannot find anything wrong with the gearbox.

    The ONLY major item damaged is the oil filter for the gearbox. When the filter casing was opened, the mechanic had to work very hard to remove the filter from the casing. The filter had been sucked deeply into the hose opening that leads to the control block. See the images. Unfortunately, this seems to be a symptom, not a cause for the loss of oil pressure. Seems the filter was starved of oil & was sucked into the hose. This was a new filter 20 hours ago!

    Now the Gearbox will be re-installed, we will bypass the oil cooler momentarily to see whether there is a blockage there & check whether the gearbox works.
    However, I believe that the it will work, which will then point to a blockage or problem in the oil cooler. So the oil cooler will then be removed & tested.
    Is there a way of testing the oil cooler for blockages without removing it? I suggested compressed air, but apparently air will bypass an obstruction that oil will not.
    Is there any cause for this problem that anyone can point to or advise on?

    Everyone tells me that an Allison gearbox, once re-built, should be good for many years & thousands of hours!
    This will be the 3rd rebuild I have had to do in 3 years! The 1st rebuild was apparently done incorrectly & the mechanics refunded the cost & recommended the present mechanics who have a good reputation.
    They are doing the work under warranty, so you can imagine they are just as concerned as I am, to find the cause and make sure it does not happen again.

    Attached Files:

  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    My thoughts. The filter will not be sucked down if there is no oil, because air is easier to suck or pump that oil to begin with. This leads me to believe there is either a restriction prior to the oil filter (possibly the screen being blocked with debris). It could be a defective oil filter that was weak and crushed down and blocked flow, judging by the looks of it. Are you 100% certain that is the proper oil filter insert, try a different brand as well? Is there a way to convert it to a spin on oil filter and ditch the oil sock filter entirely? OR, check the vent and make sure it is free and clear. If the vent is blocked it may not allow the oil pump to pump oil from the pan and distribute it through the gear. The vent could easily be overlooked during a rebuild, if it has one.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Checked the filter in the 3 bolt flange fitting & found a small amount of clutch material but a lot of lint type material.

    Unfortunately, this seems to be a symptom, not a cause for the loss of oil pressure. Seems the filter was starved of oil & was sucked into the hose. This was a new filter 20 hours ago!


    You found your cause. I'm sure the coarse filter screen was covered in lint or a passage restricted. Your filter was falling apart.

    Hint#2; Unless it's clogged, filter media should not move anywhere or deform.

    I never liked soc filters. Please try a standard, caged paper filter.
  4. mwwhit1

    mwwhit1 Senior Member

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    This would concern me:

    "Checked oil & it was dry.
    Filled with 40w oil and pressure momentarily went to 155psi in gear, but still would not go past idle.
    Then pressure was back to 40 psi. I shut down the engine & returned home on the Stbd motor."

    Where did the oil go? You didn't mention it blowing out anywhere obvious. Definitely check the cooler. It may have gone out the exhaust and this damage is a result of low oil. A blockage in the cooler should lead to high temps, burnt oil, but still oil in the GB.

    Pursue the filter but fully pressure test the cooler.
  5. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Please keep the theory & solutions coming!
    That is why Yacht Forums exists in many incidences!

    I have a STRONG feeling the WRONG OIL FILTER was installed,
    Meantime please keep the theory & ideas coming!
    Many thanks,
    G
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    How does the failed one look compared to the one in the other side?
  7. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Can you fill us in a little on your oil cooler? My 12v cooler handles the engine and clutch in one unit but separate oil paths (forward, right, low side of block). You may have a failure. you mentioned block oil was a little up? How does the block coolant look.
    If you have a cooler like this, Then pull it; is has a leak and is full of lint.

    I wish I knew more about the MH clutches.
    Maybe someone else here can explain the oil path thru the clutch, filter & cooler.
  8. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I will answer your questions as I go through.
    Capt J & K1W1:
    The day before, the mechanic was blaming the last mechanic or me for installing the wrong filter until I proved to him that the filter was installed by his team. then he said either type was acceptable. The filter in the other gearbox is in a cartridge!
    rcrapps: The oil cooler is attached to the side of the motor. It is fed from hoses going from the control box/filter/gb. All the hoses were replaced by me in 2013. It is cooled via the heat exchanger coolant, NOT the raw water. When we checked the coolant it was all good, i.e no oil particles.
  9. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Where did the oil go???
    Exactly my question. We have checked the heat exchanger, bilge and engine.
    Can the oil cooler be pressure tested while installed on the motor?
    I actually hope it is the wrong filter that caused this mess. Then we have the solution.
  10. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    Time for one of these:

    RedFlagAFlying.jpg
  11. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    Gear cooler?

    On my DD the gear cooler is Raw Water cooled....

    you may be loosing the gear lube out the exhaust.

    I would pressure check the gear cooler, also check to see if the is gear oil in the exhaust.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, take both hoses off of the gearbox oil cooler inlet and outlet. Cap one and then take another cap and drill and tap it for a shrader valve to be screwed into it. Screw it in the gear cooler and pump it up to pressure and see if it holds. If you're loosing pressure, then you know the gear oil is going into the engine. The gear runs 3x the pressure of the engine oil, so it would pump it into the engine, not the other way around. I definately feel the oil filter is a large part of the problem and that looks to be the filter for the DD oil bypass filter or crankcase overpressure filter, whichever you want to call it.

    The loss of oil points to a cooler failure. However, I've seen DD's 12 cylinders change an inch of oil level if the boat is fueled and sits 6" lower in the bow or stern.
  13. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I'm looking up the oil coolers and finding a few different models. Most have independent cores and no way oil can transfer between them, some other models have possibility's.
    I am unable to transfer a PDF pic to upload. Can you upload a picture of your clutch / block oil cooler?
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    You will not have a solution till we find where the oil went.
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Do I remember you stating in an old thread you had the fly wheel worked on? I'm on the road trying to remember the MH gear wet clutch (wet clutch??). Was there an oil seal between the wet clutch and the end of the main crankshaft?
    I'm trying to find and download an IPB now.

    I'm still trying to remember Alison pictures and manuals I have gone thru. I have no hands in. Could use a MH expert here also.

    Update;
    Anybody out there know more about the "pilot bearing oil seal"?
  16. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Hi,
    The oil cooler is not raw water cooled. The HE coolant does this.
    Yes, there was a new flywheel installed last year in that rebuild. It is a wet clutch (Forward gear) The oil seal between the clutch and the crankshaft was good.
    Here is the gear oil cooler:

    Attached Files:

  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    If that cooler fails it could definately blow the gear oil into the crankcase. I believe the cooler has a series of coils that the gear oil runs through, and the engine oil passes through that area to cool it off......To test it, remove both high pressure hoses, cap one of the cooler ends, get a brass fitting (cap), drill it and mount a shrader valve in it and pressurize it to 30 psi and see what happens......
  18. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    The Gearbox is back on the engine!
    Tomorrow we test the oil cooler.
    It will be interesting.
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    That oil cooler has two isolated cores. I'm pretty sure oil can NOT transfer between them. With no oil in the coolant, the leak is not here. Backward blow some low pressure air thru it to insure no restriction a is clear of lint.
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    With out knowing where the oil went, I wish it was replaced and any other suspect that may pass oil thru the crank end.