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Re-wiring CC410 - Questions

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by rfb3, Dec 5, 2008.

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  1. rfb3

    rfb3 New Member

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    I am about to re-wire my CC410 Commander; engine and dash. However, I have a few questions before I begin:

    I cannot find transmission oil pressure senders or gauges. Are these necesary to replace? Or can I omit them in the new setup?
    Can the tach, volt, start and run wires be "daisy-chained" from the lower helm to the upper helm?

    Any help is greatly appreciated!
    -Capt. Freddie
  2. rfb3

    rfb3 New Member

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    I guess I'll answer my own question now that I have found an answer...

    The gauges can be dasiy chained if you use a dual sender.
    The transmisison gauges are helpful but not really mandtory.

    Wow, this forum sucks... Not a single reply to my initial message.
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "Wow, this forum sucks... "

    How? As opposed to those forums where someone will answer your question even if they have no idea what they, or you, are talking about? Consider the silence as meaning no one had an answer you could depend on and rather than make something up just kept out of it.

    Getting bad advice and acting on it really sucks.
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    personally, i like having Tranny pressure gauge, but it probably depends on the trannies that you have. on DDs/allisons, they're very useful as they will be the first indication of level getting low, warning of imminent delays or shifting failure.

    afaik, tranny gauges and senders are available, i havnet' had to replace mines but i know people who have on their hatts.

    and btw, in case you dont' know, forums dont' work one way... you are *****ing about not having received any reply but you havent' bothered contributing anything in the month you've joined...
  6. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I've only worked one boat with tranny pressure gauges. Although they're nice to have the tranny level should be part of the pre-cruise check.
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    obviously... but sometimes by observing the pressure while shifting you can get a feel for potential issues with the pump, filter, etc... and i once had the case of a gear which had proper level on the dipstick but got a little low after a 10 hour run... the gauge warned me that I may have to be a little extra careful while docking that night since Allisons will lag getting from Rev. to Fwd when pressure is low...
  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    .

    That note was meant for the novices who don't understand the importance of the pre-cruise check. I know that's not you. Although I will say that it's rare that I'm looking at a gauge when shifting gears and 10 hours is a bit long to go without a recheck. Where I can see it as handy would be in the case of a moderate leak (slight leak will be picked up on the check and a dump...well you'll know about that real fast:eek: )
    __________________
  9. TedZ

    TedZ New Member

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    Just to make sure there is no confusion to the dual sender issue.

    Senders are providing a variable resistance to ground. They are either externally or internally grounded. A sender designed to drive two gauges has a different range of resistance than one designed to drive one gauge. Mounting the sender on the engine, tranny etc. is usually where the problem starts. If it is an internally grounded sender - common - you should have very clean threads and use an anti-ox for thread sealer, not teflon tape etc. All wiring must be on very good connectors or the gauges will be off, frequently high.

    An externally grounded sender must have one terminal going to a good engine ground, sometines hard to find and maintain.

    As far as tranny gauges go, IMHO they are as critical as oil pressure on the engine. Anything that stops the vessel from forward progress is critical in my book!

    Hope this helps.

    Ted
  10. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Welcome to the Forum TedZ. I agree that you can never have too much information and a total engine monitoring system is certainly preferable. Trannys tend to be very reliable until they're NOT if you get my drift. That gauge will seldom give you information that you won't get in your engineroom check or when you hear that unmistakable sound. So although preferable to have, it's easy to see why a manufacturer would leave that off when costs have to be cut. The Viking SC I recently came off had no fuel gauges at the upper helm station. They all seem to cut somewhere.
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Pascal is correct here as to the usefulness of these and temp gauges

    The coolers are most likely to start leaking when you are underway on your cruise- this will cause a loss of oil into the cooling medium as it's pressure will be greater than the coolant, the loss of fluid cannot always be seen when underway by the eye but for sure it will lead to high temps (as will over filling) and clutches to slip.

    Not something you would necessarily notice at pre sailing checklist time.

    On a bigger yacht the drop in clutch pressure is also a good sign that the prop will be turning before the shaft tachos (if fitted) give a reading.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree, I too like to have transmission pressure gauges and they have alerted me to a problem when the transmission pump was going bad on a MY with ZF's. It allowed me to travel 250 miles home (after a ZF dealer came out and checked it, cleaned filter, said it "should" probably be ok to get back as long as pressure stays above X amount).

    If you need any gauges for your Hatt, I have a lot of those origional AC gauges from a '79 58' Hatteras.
  13. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I am not sure about the gearboxes used on smaller yachts but on the bigger ones and commercial ships I have worked on it is not uncommon to have a get home facility where you can manually crank up the pressure on the clutch pack with some bolts- This is done when Oil Press is lost or shift valves are not working and is done when the engine is stopped- the shaft starts turning as soon as the engine starts so it isn't any use for maneuvering as it takes a while to setup and has to be undone to change direction and the other set tightened up -all through a series of small Judas Hole type openings.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    This ZF had the features where you could lock it into gear. BUT, that would've been the problem, it would be locked into gear. I needed neutral and reverse as well as foward to cross lake okeechobie safely and go through all of the locks and manuever. I was at cruise and watched the RPM's go from 1950to 2350 and at the very same time and quickness gear pressure drop from 250 to 0. I quickly brought the throttle back and into nuetral. The gear pressure only fluctuated from 0-40 and back down instead of being 140 in neutral. I checked fluid it was fine, etc etc...... zf came out cleaned the filter (fine screen with the scraper) pressure only came up to 90lbs neutral and 90 in gear at idle (when it's supposed to go to 250lbs and stay all rpm's). It did come up with a little throttle at 800rpm's it was 150lbs and at 1000 rpm's it was 250lbs....... ZF of north america came out in fort lauderdale......it has $6k for the oil pump installed on a ZF wb165 transmission..... unbelievable......the pump was over $4k alone
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    That sounds like a pretty cool setup, and again, the more info I have available the better but most owners of smaller yachts wouldn't have a clue what to do with that. A tranny blows, it's time to call Sea Tow. Remember, these boats don't go out for more than maybe 2 or 3 days and that would be trolling for fish (at cruise speed you're talking 15 hours tops). In 20 years of running these boats I've only had one tranny blow (and one that should have blown when the owner threw it from forward cruise into reverse :eek: ) and that was on a new boat heading back to the dealer. More than a pressure gauge on that one I'd have loved to have a fuel transfer system or at least a garden hose to syphon with. The only boat I've run with tranny pressure gauges though was a 51 Bertram, and that includes dinner yachts and crew boats. Considering that in those 20 years it would never have helped I can understand why they're seldom found on these boats.
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    speaking of pressure and how valuable information can be when it comes to critical systems...

    couple of weeks ago, on the way back from the bahamas i disengaged the auto pilot about 1/2 mile from cape florida to make the turn out of the Stiltsville channel to the Cape Florida Channel along Key Biscayne. big "oh s..t" moment when the wheel turned freely and nothing happened. I had time to re engage the pilot and use it to do the turn before centering the rudders and consider my options. Soon after that, pressure dropped to the point where the AP failed and i finished the trip using assymetrical thurst to steer.

    If there has been a remote pressure gauge on the steering system (hynautic power steering), I woudl have seen the pressure dropping while underway and would have seen the failure coming. I could have gone to the ER and add some fluid and air, or at least be aware of the problem before actually loosing steering.

    yes, i had checked the level and pressure before leaving Bimini... I had not done an ER check on that trip since it was just a 2 hour run but further testing showed it took about an hour to loose fluid and pressure so an ER check half way thru woudl have shown full pressure and level.

    but a pressure gauge at the helm woudl have alerted me that i was about to loose steering before the wheel actually went limp

    problem turned out to be a leak in the power steering cooler. there are no zinc in the Hynautic Cooler (made by Champ) so i guess they don't last as long as they should since this one was about 6 years old. Didnt' take me long to figure that one out since there were no visible leaks anywhere and when i pulled the first hose off the cooler, i had fluid coming out with the water...

    btw... Hynautic customer service stinks... they coudlnt' get me the cooler part nr, told me to call their hydraulic tech support number which didn't work. I ended up getting the cooler directly from the manufacturer.
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Now there's something I've never seen, but wouldn't it be nice (lost my steering to a leak coming into Norfolk last fall). If we got all the gauges we'd like though the helm would probably look a bit like that on a 747.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have run a few yachts where it did look like a 747. One Broward I ran had full gauges for both generators at the helm, everything and anything that you could think of.

    It would be pretty easy to put a pressure gauge at the helm. You'd just have to put a T on one of the fittings on the helm steering and run it to the gauge.
  19. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    most boats have plenty of room for important gauges, and i consider steering to be pretty important. of course, by the time the boat is built, adding things is much harder since you have to spend hours running wires so it becomes unpractical.
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Since I'm generally on boats that the owners envision themselves running (-80') the problem is selling them a boat that looks like only a professional should be running and explaining the added cost. If it's not in the salon or master bath why pay more for it:rolleyes: . Remember most of these guys buy the latest GPS/Chartplotter/Radar (for bragging rights), turn off the radar and watch their boat go across the "map".