[Capt Bill11]

Originally Posted by diesel one

Hull number 2, the one that sank in Mexico--had the same set of problems I am told.

Can you imagine the owner's feelings when he heard his multi million dollar boat was resting on the bottom? My heart sank and I don't even know him.

My guess is if he/she was well insured and the boat was truly a POS, he/she would be jumping for joy if it was totaled by the insurance company.

[cabobo09]

You guys are assuming from hear say that the NH 75 are POS boats. The boat sank because some goof ball in the yard didn't install the tuna tubes correctly and somebody didn't check the installation. Don't you think you should sit on your hands and obstain until there is actual proof before you conclude it is a manufactures defect?

[Capt Bill11]

Originally Posted by cabobo09

You guys are assuming from hear say that the NH 75 are POS boats. The boat sank because some goof ball in the yard didn't install the tuna tubes correctly and somebody didn't check the installation. Don't you think you should sit on your hands and obstain until there is actual proof before you conclude it is a manufactures defect?

Note I implied "if" the boat was a POS. And I wasn't talking about what sank it. I was alluding to it's other purported issues.

But IMHO an "ocean going" trawler yacht should not sink at the dock without giving out some kind of warning. And a loud one at that.

Of course perhaps it did but no one was listening. :-)

[caboken]

I live near the marina, in San Jose Del Cabo, where the N75 sank, and have seen detailed photos from inside the engine room.

The quick story is that a few days prior to the sinking the boat had tuna tubes installed by a local shipyard. A new 2" thru-hull was cut, and connected to a pump with sanitation hose. The hose had a PVC fitting at the end that was screwed into the top of the pump, which popped up in the middle of the night. This resulted in something like 200 gpm of water coming into the engine room.

I should point out that Nordhavn had nothing to do with any of this.

The boat does have small electric pumps, but they are rated at only about 11 gpm. I don't know whether there was one or two pumps in the engine room. In any event it is irrelevant. There is also a large hydraulic pump (10,000 gph), but it would have required someone to start the engines.

The boat was on a side-tie and there may not have been other boats close enough to have heard the alarm. My guess is that the alarm sounded and no one heard, or no one responded.

The boat has now been refloated and is sitting at the shipyard at the marina. It looks undamaged from the exterior, although I'd imagine the interior is a mess. They were in the process of cleaning up the mess when I saw the boat. The word on the docks was that the boat would be repaired.

On a side note, I regularly "hang out" on Nordhavn Dreamers, and was suprised by the negative comments here. It's actually a great message board, and has a significant number of both Nordhavn Owners, and people interested in Nordhavn.

-Ken Williams
N68, Sans Souci

[Capt Bill11]

Originally Posted by caboken

I should point out that Nordhavn had nothing to do with any of this.

The boat does have small electric pumps, but they are rated at only about 11 gpm. I don't know whether there was one or two pumps in the engine room. In any event it is irrelevant. There is also a large hydraulic pump (10,000 gph), but it would have required someone to start the engines.

Nordhavn may have had nothing to do with the thru hull tuna tube installation. But I'd expect much more in the way of an automatic bilge pump system then that. Only one or maybe two 660 gph pumps, in a 75' boat!!
You can't be serious?

[paulgd]

I also have been a member of both these forums for a couple of years and whilst the Nordhavn forum is very positive about their brand I havn`t seen or heard of anyone being kicked off for being negative about aspects of poor design or service; although most of the owners who post have all been more than happy with their boats and the way in which Nordhavn has dealt with any problems they may have had.
I`m surprised that other forum owners have been kicked off this site for advertising a brand specific forum which I would not have thought been competition for this site; but its nice to know the rules and see how a site is really run.
I would like to say now that I am a Garment Manufacturer and supplier and have no associations with either site or Nordhavn except for being a potential owner of a long range yacht; type and manufacturer not yet decided upon.
Paul

[caboken]

Originally Posted by Capt. Bill11

Only one or maybe two 660 gph pumps, in a 75' boat!!
You can't be serious?

Apologies Cap. Bill. I didn't mean to imply that the boat had ONLY the two 660 gph pumps.

It also had a large hydraulic pump and bellows-type manual pumps, however, with no one on the boat to start the engines, the hydraulic pump, and manual pumps, were useless.

As to whether or not the automatic electric manual pumps should have been higher capacity, that is a fair question. I have a slightly smaller Nordhavn and have three similar pumps in the engine room, but will certainly be considering an upgrade, as a result of this incident.

My guess would be that few, if any, production power boats, in this size range, have sufficient 'at the dock' pumping capacity to cope with a two inch hole in the bottom, six feet under the water. I usually think of Dashew as the reference standard on these types of issues, and just searched his site, trying to determine what he puts on his FPB series, and couldn't find a detailed spec sheet. Anyone know?

Ken W

[Capt Bill11]

Originally Posted by caboken

Apologies Cap. Bill. I didn't mean to imply that the boat had ONLY the two 660 gph pumps.

It also had a large hydraulic pump and bellows-type manual pumps, however, with no one on the boat to start the engines, the hydraulic pump, and manual pumps, were useless.

As to whether or not the automatic electric manual pumps should have been higher capacity, that is a fair question. I have a slightly smaller Nordhavn and have three similar pumps in the engine room, but will certainly be considering an upgrade, as a result of this incident.

My guess would be that few, if any, production power boats, in this size range, have sufficient 'at the dock' pumping capacity to cope with a two inch hole in the bottom, six feet under the water. I usually think of Dashew as the reference standard on these types of issues, and just searched his site, trying to determine what he puts on his FPB series, and couldn't find a detailed spec sheet. Anyone know?

Ken W

I understood you about the boat having a large capacity hydraulic pump onboard. It's just my contention that a boat that size and supposed quality should have at least one very large capacity automatic pump in each bilge area from the factory. And Nordhavns are touted to be a cut or several above your average production boat.

A 660 gph pump is what I'd put in a shower sump or a wave runner, maybe.

Considering most boats seem to sink at the dock with nobody on board having a high capacity non-automatic manual start pump is more of a marketing tool than a boat saver.


As to what Dashew puts in his boats:

"Bilge Pumping Security

We don't expect our boats to leak. Still, there need to be bilge pumps on hand for every eventuality.

This starts with a hydraulically operated damage control pump located in the engine room. This can be manually controlled, or run with a float switch in each of the watertight areas. The suction line pulls from the engine room, each of the three interior sections, and the forepeak. The nominal capacity of this pump is 160 gallons (600L) per minute - that is three 55 gallon drums of liquid every minute.

There are 10 gallon (38 liter) per minute capacity PAR diaphragm bilge pumps for the forepeak, interior, and a double pair in the engine room, each with its own float switch and manual override."

Looks like Nordhavn was following the "the reference standard" advice. Maybe it's time for a new standard.

[travler]

just a dumb question , i guess these boats don't have bilge alarm's or watch alarms either so that when you are away it makes a loud sound or a flashing light or some kind of warning there is a problem .

also i have travled up the coast of calif with a couple of those boats (don't remember witch models ) and i don't think they were enjoying the ride it looked pretty wet from a couple of miles away

travler

[caboken]

Originally Posted by Capt. Bill11

The nominal capacity of this pump is 160 gallons (600L) per minute

It's interesting to note that the hydraulic pump on the FPB 64 is only 160 gpm. In other words, the 200gpm flowing into the boat in this particular situation would have overwhelmed even the hydraulic pump.

A little off the topic, but let's imagine that someone had been onboard, and it had been an older boat with a 'rusty' thru-hull, and the handle were to snap off while trying to close the valve? Now what?

I honestly don't know how much force there would be from the water coming into the boat, and whether 'sticking a rag in the hole' would accomplish anything or not. I'd like to think this one through. Hopefully it will never happen to me, but there are a lot of marinas out there with funky electrical systems. Damage to perfectly healthy thru-hulls is not impossible, and has probably played a role in more than one sinking.

-Ken W

[caboken]

Originally Posted by travler

just a dumb question , i guess these boats don't have bilge alarm's

Travlr: Not at all a dumb question, and I'm sure it is one that lots of people are asking.

Nordhavn's do have audible alarms in the engine room. On my boat, I've accidentally triggered the alarm several times while washing out the engine room. It is VERY loud, and drives everyone crazy until I figure out how to shut it off.

My guess is that the alarm on this boat did sound, and there was no one around to hear it, or at least no one who cared.

The boat was on a side tie and I don't know how close the boats were in front or in back. The sinking occured at night, and the waterproof door was open between the engine room and the lazarette. Perhaps the batteries were underwater within 15 minutes? I'm guessing something electrically happened, which silenced the alarm at some point.

Remember that old story about "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, was there a sound?"

There are several systems sold (such as Boat Nanny, Skymate, and Spot) which will notify an owner via cell phone, if the bilge alarm sounds. I would think this incident is a reminder that we should consider buying, and using, these systems.

Ken W

[Marmot]

"... let's someone had been onboard, and it had been an older boat with a 'rusty' thru-hull, and the handle were to snap off while trying to close the valve? Now what?"

That's what damage control plugs are for.

[caboken]

Originally Posted by Marmot

That's what damage control plugs are for.

Good point Marmot.

I do have the Seakits Damage Control Kit on my boat.

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=misc&i=014

I suspect that hammering one of these wood plugs into a thru-hull isn't as easy as it sounds. But, it sure beats the alternative...

Actually, I already had on my list, as a result of reading about the N75 incident, to make up some sort of plasticized page with the location of all the thru-hulls, and post it in a highly visible location, and also to move the Seakits rescue kit to a much more visible location.

-Ken W

[Alaskanmutt]

Originally Posted by caboken

The boat does have small electric pumps, but they are rated at only about 11 gpm.

This seems silly, While I do not have a yacht I do have a Bayliner Trophy that has enough pumps to run 3200 an hour, maybe I am paranoid ( I was in the Coast Guard and saw many boat sink due to ineffecient pumps, some with loss of life)

The Missus and myself are looking at the new Bayliner 266 Discovery and already have talked to the Distributor about increasing the pumps in it. My thought is that is the first thing you do.

Just my opinion.

[dan1000]

I'm sure Nordhavns, which are good solid boats, have more automatic bilge pump capacity than just a couple of pumps.

I have over 20,000 GPH (333GPM) of automatic bilge pumps in my Sea Spirit (as well as the engine pump, hand pump, and gasoline powered aux pump I bought). But the bilge pumps are spread across various watertight compartments. In a breach, only a couple of those pumps would actually see water, with the rest remaining dry. Also, I bet my 20,000GPH capacity is really more like 10,000GPH (166GPM), since the water must be pumped UPHILL to the surface, and pumps are rated without taking that into account.

I don't believe that those pumps would have kept my boat off the bottom in a 200GPM or more leak in the engine or living quarters.

The Seakits people advised me to install an alarm BELL (not horn) on my boat, since bells bring out a crowd but horns get ignored. I haven't done it yet, but may well do so.

Dan