[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by Capt J

Cheoy lee builds a pretty well built boat overall. I don't like the quality of their stainless steel which is pretty much common throughout all of the Taiwan builds. I don't have any experience with the newer ones......but I did a little work on 2 older ones. EVERY dc wire throughout the boat was orange and only numbered at the very end. It made tracing wires a nightmare......

CaptJ,

I can see it was late in the eve when you posted, so you may have been tired. Cheoy Lee is based in Hong Kong, NOT Taiwan. And unlike a few of their Taiwanese counterparts, CL is an ISO certified yard.

I haven't been aboard many of their older builds, but I've been on a number of new Cheoy Lee's over the past couple of years for sea trials and reviews. I didn't see the wiring issues you mentioned, but you can't have shoddy wiring when it's built to class.

We've all seen molded stainless parts on older Taiwanese builds. These components lacked sufficient chromium or there were impurities in the metal. I haven't seen this issue on Cheoy Lee's builds, so I ventured a call to CL's Ft. Laud office and asked John West if they had an older boat at the yard and if he could take a few cleat pics. These were taken with his camera phone so they are a little grainy. These are the cleats from a 2006 72' Cheoy Lee. I don't see a problem here...

[Yachtjocky]

I think he may have been referring to a slightly older Cheoy Lee than a 2006 model.

2006 is like a new model to some of us older guys.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Pascal

Computer controlled pop up cleats? You guys are kidding, right?

Don't get me started on Taiwan stainless! It takes a bottle of rust stain cleaner a month to stay ahead!

Nope, the popup cleats are controlled by the computer........wonderful, huh?

Ohhhhh I know all about Taiwan stainless......

The Cheoy Lee's I referred to with all orange wires, (they were only numbered at the very end of each wire, wherever it went) were boats built in the late 80's, 90's. A 2006 is a new boat for the most part, comparitively speaking, and considering very few boats were built after say 2007 from each builder.......probably 20-30% with most builders compared to what they built in 2006......

In the pics, if you look at the cleat with the dockline on it, the sideways view, you can see the discoloration all along the side of the cleat where it meets the deck, and some of the flat section. Take that boat from here to Nassau, and within a day or two you'll be polishing those cleats again.

[FISHTIGUA]

Even the best quality 316 stainless will discolour eventualy in saltwater. It takes work to look after metal deck fittings. On very long crossings, 4/5000 miles, we used to use a polymer based coating to protect the stainless against salts sitting in even the tiniest of crevices in the surface of all metals.

Here is a quick guide from Grundfos pumps that confirms this.

http://standards.nsf.org/apps/group_...Resistance.pdf

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by FISHTIGUA

Even the best quality 316 stainless will discolour eventualy in saltwater. It takes work to look after metal deck fittings. On very long crossings, 4/5000 miles, we used to use a polymer based coating to protect the stainless against salts sitting in even the tiniest of crevices in the surface of all metals.

Here is a quick guide from Grundfos pumps that confirms this.

http://standards.nsf.org/apps/group_...Resistance.pdf

I understand that all stainless will rust, but Taiwanese stainless has to be polished on a weekly or bi-weekly basis as many will attest.........

It's also the same way if the stainless has been welded, because when stainless is welded it tarnishes the outside, which is then polished back, but also tarnishes a certain metal in the stainless throughout the metal. The stainless on the 160' delta was all welded and had to be polished every 2 weeks and would never come really nice.......

[amgscrap]

I came across your statement that Lazzara yachts "shutdown operations". I ordered a new 64 LSX in March. The yacht is currently under construction in Tampa. I visited the factory yesterday and it was humming. It has never been shutdown. My 64 will be one of their top sellers better then any 64's on the market. They are also starting construction of a 90 footer. The boat building business is tough enough without false statements being made. As the publisher you should check your sources. Now you need to correct your post and correct the wrong you have caused to Lazzara. They are a class operation that builds the best boats in the industry and a widely distributed correction is in order.

[kkreicker1]

Originally Posted by amgscrap

I came across your statement that Lazzara yachts "shutdown operations". I ordered a new 64 LSX in March. The yacht is currently under construction in Tampa. I visited the factory yesterday and it was humming. It has never been shutdown. My 64 will be one of their top sellers better then any 64's on the market. They are also starting construction of a 90 footer. The boat building business is tough enough without false statements being made. As the publisher you should check your sources. Now you need to correct your post and correct the wrong you have caused to Lazzara. They are a class operation that builds the best boats in the industry and a widely distributed correction is in order.

The whole point to these Forums is to chat about our love of boating. A person simply asked a question and several people had answers or additional questions. Lets not get into "work" mode here on a fun and interesting forum.

I am really glad however to here that Lazzara Yachts are still in operation. They do put out a good boat.

Cheers, from Saugatuck

Keith

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by amgscrap

The boat building business is tough enough without false statements being made. As the publisher you should check your sources. Now you need to correct your post and correct the wrong you have caused to Lazzara. They are a class operation that builds the best boats in the industry and a widely distributed correction is in order.

Really? Where exactly is the false statement in this thread?

All I see is a comment about a rumour and a question...

The last I heard, Lazzara shut down operations. Has there been some recent news?

There is no statement of fact there. You seem awfully jumpy, and more than a little defensive there amgscrap...

[SHAZAM]

Originally Posted by Kevin

There is no statement of fact there. You seem awfully jumpy, and more than a little defensive there amgscrap...

Well said.

[CaptTom]

Having read this post a few weeks ago, and finding myself in Tampa on other business on Friday, July 13, I contacted Lazzara Yachts and was able to get a meeting with Brad Lazzara. I asked him straight up if Lazzara was out of business, and after a chuckle he said "No". It's not the same bustling yard of yesteryear, but how many here in the US are these days?

After some discussion, Brad gave me a tour of the sheds, where I did see amgscrap's hull in production. In fact, several workers were getting ready to paint the engine room. Another hull will soon be started, a 95-footer, and the mock-up is just about to begin. Most workers were just shutting down for the day (early quitting time on Fridays) so the yard was quiet sans the thunder from a local storm.

Brad did say that Lazzara has moved from a spec builder to build-on-order company, as many builders have done due to the economic conditions. Banks aren't giving up money on spec any longer and this along with other factors has created a paradigm shift in how builders will run their businesses going forward. Some builders have ceased operations due to a decrease in orders (i.e Luhrs, Silverton, Mainship group), with the hopes that they will come back one day. But that day will only happen when buyers come back and the demand once again exceeds the current inventory. Lazzara does have a new project in the works, and Brad said he will send me information that I can share with YF. Hope to see that soon.
T

[YachtForums]

I forgot to follow up on this thread. Frankly, I didn't find amgscrap's comment worthy of a response. Clearly, he knows nothing of the work we've done for Lazzara over the years. My review of the first LSX resulted in multiple contracts for the company inside of a few days. And YF is one of the only medias that has provided any coverage for them in recent years.

Originally Posted by amgscrap

The boat building business is tough enough without false statements being made. As the publisher you should check your sources.

As an attorney, I would expect no less from you than to manipulate my statement into an untruth. Might be best for you to get your facts straight and get your arrogance in check.

Originally Posted by amgscrap

Now you need to correct your post and correct the wrong you have caused to Lazzara. They are a class operation that builds the best boats in the industry and a widely distributed correction is in order.

Lets be honest here, shall we? Obviously, you are calling for a retraction of a statement I never made, because you fear it will devalue your investment. So let's make some corrections...

First, they are not the best boats in industry, but they are a fine boat none-the-less. Second, a class operation stands behind their product with warranty, service and support. That is yet to be seen at this stage. Third, I haven't wronged Lazzara, but it would be wrong to tell our readers any less than the truth. As an attorney, I'm sure that's a concept that's hard for you to grasp.

[carelm]

CaptTom,

Thanks for the update. I noticed that Lazzara has two 64 foot models, a flying bridge and an express cruiser. I'm just guessing, but based on the Lazzara blog about an LSX64, that appears to be amgscrap's yacht. The express cruiser has a link to its own website. Is this the new project Brad was referring to? Also were they working on an LSX92 or is a 95 footer a new model?

One other note is that Skyfall, an LMC76 will be powered by two ZF 4000 pod systems and 1200 hp MAN engines in lieu of the triple Cummins 600 hp Zeus pod systems.

[amgscrap]

When I first posted a response to the Lazzara rumor I had never heard or read any of the threads on your site. Over the past week or so I have visited the site and read quite a few threads. I must say many are insightful from knowledgeable people. The site is a good tool for all boaters. I am a relatively new boater. I have been boating for approximately seven years. In that time I have purchased five new boats. The first three were Italian and my current is a Sunseeker. The last three I had built to spec. I do purchase a new boat every year and a half to two years. It is my one and only addiction. I love new boats. The past three boats I took possession in Europe and cruised the Med each summer. I do want to clarify and respond to the subsequent postings to mine. Yes, I am an attorney by training, although I have not practiced for over twenty five years. I assume you spoke to Lazzara and they informed you of my training. I am and have been a CEO of a multinational company for many years. Before signing a contract to buy a boat, or putting down a deposit, I do conduct due diligence on the boat builder. I did do it for Lazzara and I am continuing throughout the build. They have no Judgments against them and no pending litigations. It was mentioned in one of the threads that they owed someone over $500,000 and were delinquent. If that were so I would expect to see a judgment, lien filed, or at a minimum a pending litigation. I have seen none. Thus, the statement is not credible. It was also stated in another response that I am trying to protect my investment from being “devalued”. A boat is not an investment. It is an expense, a luxury, a toy. The only concern I have is the enjoyment of my “toy”. The next statement questions whether Lazzara will honor their warranty. Obviously the boat has not yet been delivered so I can only speculate, but have every indication from their reputation and speaking to current owners that they will. I must say that the same has not been true of the previous or current boat I own. I did get involved in litigation with an Italian boat builder over their warranty. I would advise all to understand that every warranty contains a venue clause. Meaning that they can only be sued in their home country or State. Even though I never received a copy of the venue clause my case was dismissed by a Florida Federal Court. I have offices in Italy and they settled just before I was about to start legal proceedings there. My Sunseeker warranty has also not been fully honored. When I had difficulty in the Med I was told to bring the boat back to the UK or to Florida for repairs. I had the boat repaired in the Med and have not received back about $10,000 to this day. Thus it is more than the credit worthiness of a company whether a warranty will be honored. Lazzara is in Florida and I believe I will have a better experience. I first visited Lazzara in January and since the order in March have spoken to Dick Lazzara many times a week. I find this build to be a very positive experience. I have visited the factory about five times and they have over twenty people working on my boat. They also are building a 95 and about to start production on another boat. Every time I see Dick he is in his work clothes on the factory floor sweating the details. They have a fulltime interior designer in house which has allowed us to totally customize our boat. I will be sea trialing the boat this coming Friday. I am allowing them to display my boat at the Fort Lauderdale boat show. There was another thread questioning who would buy a carbon craft tender for over a $100,000. Well that person is me. It will fit in the garage of my Lazzara. No, it did not cost $100,000. These are difficult times for the boat building industry. I know of no builder who is not struggling. I find the Lazzara’s to be good hard working people. It was stated you heard they shut down operations. All it would have taken is a phone call to verify or disprove. I do enjoy your site and hope you will take this post in the positive manner it is intended

[Yachtjocky]

80 Sunseeker bought in the Med. by an american owner, fully European equipped, brought back to Florida and repaired under warranty to the tune of $76,000.

105 Sunseeker bought in the Med. by a Central American owner, repaired under warranty in Florida for over $300,000

50 Sunseeker bought in Florida by an American / Greek owner repaired fully under warranty in Greece.

Sunseeker sued in Federal Court in Florida, case went ahead and they won.

Sorry to hear about your problems and good luck with the Lazzara, sometimes the way you approach builders or their dealers can result in all items being taken care of without the threat of litigation but as soon as law suits are being mentioned obviously the builder is going to take a step back and look at every way to get out of any legal action.

Yes it is difficult times not just in the marine business however there are plenty of builders who, although they have cut back drastically, are far from struggling.

PS.

80 Lazzara with a 15 foot by 3 foot area of underwater hull area delamination repaired under warranty by the factory but only after 3 haul-outs and two surveyors agreed with the original surveyor. Deal on, deal off, deal on but thankfully they did finally repair it without the threat of litigation.

PPS.

Maybe you could post a "widely distributed correction" concerning both the Sunseeker and the "Italian boat builder" and Lazzara's being the "best in the industry", of course they are or you would not have spent your money on your new boat just make sure the new boat comes with a spare set of window seals and a few other spares that you may find helpful in about a years time.

[amgscrap]

The U.S. dealer/ distributor for the Italian boat went bust. The Italian boat builder no longer had any presence in the U.S. I engaged in about a year of letter writing with the only response being we are no longer in the U.S. so bring the boat to Italy and we will look at it.

I am a lawyer and now run a billion dollar company. I have been to the rodeo many times. Litigation should always be a case of last resort.

In the Sunseeker litigation you are referring, Sunseeker at the time owned the distributor/dealer in Fort Lauderdale. Hence, they could be sued in Florida. Since that time they have divested their dealership and the venue for all warranty claims is now the UK. They do have a reputable dealership in Florida who does perform warranty work for Sunseeker.

Looking at the model Sunseekers you list, they have not been manufactured in years. . You might not be aware that around two years ago or so the founder and owner of Sunseeker lost control to the banks. The banks appointed a partner from a large accounting firm to run the operations. Prior to that time the founder/owner had developed a fabulous reputation for not only honoring warranties but going beyond the warranty coverage. It appears to have changed when control was changed. Thus the boats you refer to were handled in a different time period under a different management. Sunseeker was sold about a year ago to an Irish investment company.

Sunseeker produces a great boat and hopefully their warranty claims are now handled differently. The Florida dealership provides great service. I truly enjoy my current Sunseeker.

Boats are complicated pieces of equipment with many systems operating in a harsh environment. I expect things to break or go wrong. I also know that it may take several attempts to both diagnose and repair the problem. I just expect, after putting down several million dollars that it will be repaired without question in a reasonable timeframe.

I truly don’t understand your PPS unless it is your form of humor. What I stated about the Italian boat and Sunseeker are FACTS that have happened to me. Not gossip discussed at the bar.