[Loren Schweizer]

I feel profound relief that I do not live in a country that adheres to the notions of some who post here.

Along with millions upon millions of other owners of industry (a/k/a shareholders), profits of companies (including Big Oil) are welcome both by individuals and the body politic, as well as foreign investors. With a few exceptions.

If you got GDP, you got game.

Wage and price controls? See Richard Nixon/1974 recession + years of DJIA bear market. It...don't...work.
Commodity traders and speculators? Been around since the beginning of the Republic which, based mostly on free markets, has been the economic powerhouse on the planet for a while.

While not perfect, it is not France or Venzuela, either.
But then, who has the most yachts?

[NYCAP123]

"Commodity traders and speculators? Been around since the beginning of the Republic which, based mostly on free markets, has been the economic powerhouse on the planet for a while."

And it worked until they realized that they could get away with unbridled greed at the expense of almost every person on the face of the planet. And how are those oil stocks doing? Did they pass along enough to cover what they took from you at the pump or what you've lost on the rest of your stocks? A free market is a wonderful thing as long as there are safeguards in place to protect the public from gougers.

[Codger]

Oil producers don't actually set the price. The only influence that the production side has is to control volumes available to the market. If the going rate is below the cost of production or below what one is willing to sell it for then the oil is just withheld from the market. OPEC is a perfect example of this but so is refusing to captain a yacht at 2.00/hr. There is the speculative side of the market which has had more than a little bit to do with the recent spikes.
I don't know if there is actually a way to ever control the market. Any time I've seen price controls on anything from the price of wheat to the cost of rent, a side market evolves very quickly to circumvent those controls. In an open market prices do find their levels and the recent drops in the price of oil prove that out. Where there are collusive trades that are only concluded in order to manipulate the price the existing regulations just need to be enforced. No different to the treatment that those that run "pump and dumps" are subject to. However, there are many legitimate reasons to have a speculative side to the market. Those airlines that forecasted the increase and bought forward to hedge their costs have done well over the past few months, those that didn't or bought the wrong side are taking a hit or are down the tubes.
There is also a completely irrational side to the market. In hindsight, those that bought forward as high as 140 figuring that the cost would hit 200 by about this time can be looked at as irrational.
I bought forward just a bit to cover the costs on one project. A couple of other projects were simply declined or put on hold either because the risk of the costs getting out of control made them unpalatable or other opportunities were there to be pursued. My twitching at the current prices is by no means from reaching around to pat myself on the back. It's from seeing the reminders up close as I think of what would have happened if I'd bet too far, too long, the wrong way. Phew!
If you truly believe that the whole swing was a pre-meditated scam then please show me those concluded forwards back in July for Nov/Dec at 50 to 60 bucks/bbl.

Hmmm. unbridled greed... Can you point me in the direction of a definition of bridled greed.
Where's the saw off point? If someone offered a captain 500/hr and he accepted would that be unbridled or bridled? How about 1000/hr?

[NYCAP123]

"Oil producers don't actually set the price" Yup, it's the commodoty traders. These are riverboat gamblers playing with stacked decks. Where's the line? I don't know, but I remember when gougers came to Homestead after hurricane Andrew with double priced generators their product was confiscated and they were either jailed or sent packing. So there is a line, but I leave it to someone smarter than me to determine where it should be. The best thought I can come up with is to tie it to the rate of inflation or some other index.

[Loren Schweizer]

Everyone who enjoyed relatively inexpensive flights on Southwest in recent years can thank management for hedging their fuel purchases well in advance--they foresaw an uptrend in the price of jetfuel and bought accordingly. Speculators...the horror. The other major carriers ended up in financial difficulties and slobbering at the public trough costing you and me.
When someone tells a company how much they'll make, they will likely, in the case of domestic oil companies, quit throwing truckloads of money at exploration and instead put it into a nice CD.
Hello Eni, Total, Statoil, Gazprom, et al...and say bye-bye to control of your economic lifeblood.

[strat57]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

That's contrary to human nature. People will spend everything they have and everything they can get their hands on. The question is whether it will be spent on petrol or everything else. Now is the time to regulate the devil out of the oil industry before they have the opportunity to jack the prices again (which will happen as soon as the economy shows any sign of improving). Take the commodity traders and the speculators out of the equation. We've realized that we have to take a world approach to the ecconomy; let's take a world approach towards the oil companies. If the oil companies try to jack prices above the rate of inflation call it what it is "price gouging". Then jail the CEO's and sue for 3x the excess profit. Either that or nationalize them.

What???? "nationalize them" Your kidding right? I seriously can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing. Loren mentioned earlier something about Venezuela..... I'd suggest you move there if you like "nationalized oil" to control pricing. Heck.... just take a "vacation" there and come back and let us know if "nationalizing" anything is a better idea.

I can understand wanting more transparency in the market, as well as better oversight of corporate assets vs. debt ratio. But let's not place blame on just one group or commodity. It's a choice to pay 3, 5 or more times the value of any stock. That's up to the individual investor or broker to assess the risk and make market plays accordingly.

Besides, we've seen the oil supply/demand issue coming since the 70's. The problems come when the "average joe" suddenly thinks "life is good" and he'll suddenly become wealthy overnight. Then spending and using our natural resources like there is no tomorrow. Suddenly he got a huge SUV he can't afford to fill up, not to mention a overvalued house he couldn't afford to begin with. Who's fault is that? Mine? Yours? Jeez....

Personally I think we're only prolonging the inevitable by bailing out everybody and their brother. Just like the "big three".... did you see them before congress? What a joke Rick Wagoner was. But one things for sure..... he's got "experts" to guide him and GM! Ford seems to be the only one that had started tightening their belt a few years back. And Daimler seen the writing on the wall and dumped Chrysler.

Bottom line.... If I run my business poorly I certainly shouldn't expect the government to bail me out. It's up to me to set something aside for the hard times. We don't need to nationalize anything unless you're ready and willing to nationalize everything! What the hey.... that's just my opinion.

[NYCAP123]

Well the economy has been rocking the boat business for awhile and has steadily moved up the food chain. The top has remained relatively untouched though. Over the weekend a $50B ponzi scheme has been uncovered with some pretty well known names attached. This morning I heard on the news that in Palm Beach a $17M home went up for sale in a panic and the pawn shop there took in a diamond pinky ring, a Ferrari and a yacht (DK if these reports are true or hype). Does anybody have any insight how it's affecting and will affect the big boat market.

[Marmot]

"We don't need to nationalize anything unless you're ready and willing to nationalize everything!"

The U.S. has done pretty well with the Tennessee Valley Authority since 1933, the Bonneville Power Administration since 1937, and France has done pretty well with electricity and gas since WW2.

When an industry has the power to destroy the economy and manipulate foreign and domestic policy through its greed and power it should be "bridled." We did it with the railroads in WWI because it was in the national interest. When we subsidize the industry that is bleeds the nation dry and has the power to direct policies that produce long term harm to the nation it is time to change the rules.

[CaptainAt18]

Sounds like there will be a 121' Heesen available at a discount pretty soon:

Mr. Dreier’s lifestyle includes a waterfront home in the Hamptons, a Manhattan triplex and a place on Ocean Avenue in Santa Monica, Calif. He kept a Mercedes 500 in New York, an Aston Martin in California, and a 121-foot blue and white Heesen motor yacht with a Jacuzzi and a crew of 10 docked in Manhattan or St. Maarten

This is a NYC lawyer involved in selling fake promissory notes to hedge funds.

NYTimes Article

Last time I posted in this thread gas was $4.19 at the marina, now $2.09.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by strat57

What???? "nationalize them" Your kidding right? I seriously can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing. Loren mentioned earlier something about Venezuela..... I'd suggest you move there if you like "nationalized oil" to control pricing. Heck.... just take a "vacation" there and come back and let us know if "nationalizing" anything is a better idea.

Bottom line.... If I run my business poorly I certainly shouldn't expect the government to bail me out. It's up to me to set something aside for the hard times. We don't need to nationalize anything unless you're ready and willing to nationalize everything! What the hey.... that's just my opinion.

....thought a bit of a chuckle might be due here
Back in 1999, the federal government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it.

They failed and it closed.

Now, we are trusting the auto industry, the economy of our country, and $800+ billion to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

....thought a bit of a chuckle might be due here
Back in 1999, the federal government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it.

They failed and it closed.

Now, we are trusting the auto industry, the economy of our country, and $800+ billion to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze.

How hard could it possibly be to run GM and manage $800B?

[brian eiland]

Aside from our crude supply problems, let me inject a few positive notions, since we are discussing fuel and cars here.

I was sure hoping those fuel prices would not drop so quickly, lest we forget working on alternative powered vehicles....particularly here in the USA where we consume so much fuel for auto purposes. And now this big downturn in the economy may make that much less funding available for these grass roots developments.

But ingenuity can not totally be quenched....here are a few interesting
3-wheel developments in the works that I found doing a little search yesterday.

Enjoy the videos, particularly that T-Rex unit:

Edited by Brian...moved the video references and discussions here:
[URL="http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/10458-alternative-powered-vehicles-3-wheel-versions.html#post68826"]

[brian eiland]

Hey Army,
I’ve told you this all along — our addiction to foreign oil could bring us to our knees, and there wouldn’t be a **** thing we could do about it. Now take a look at today’s headlines. OPEC just announced it’s cutting production by 2.2 million barrels. Remember – this is on top of the 2 million barrels in cuts they’ve already made since this summer! These guys are serious about getting the price of oil back up right where they like it: $75 a barrel, $100 a barrel, $150 a barrel.

This is exactly why now is the time to pull together and Push the Pickens Plan. Every time the price of oil drops, America falls asleep. The Saudis don’t. The Iranians don’t. The Venezuelans don’t. But we do.

President-elect Obama said it best a few weeks ago on 60 Minutes. “Oil prices go up, gas prices at the pump go up, everybody goes into a flurry of activity. And then the prices go back down and suddenly we act like it’s not important, and we start, you know, filling up our SUVs again. And, as a consequence, we never make any progress. It’s part of the addiction, all right. That has to be broken. Now is the time to break it.”

I couldn’t agree more. We’ve got to break that addiction now. Before it breaks us.

-Boone

[NYCAP123]

'He who ignores history is destined to repeat it'

[Kevin]

No kidding... http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/22/auto...back/index.htm