[DuoProp]

Whenever I speak to crew members on board yachts at various marinas, it seems like most of them are from Australia or New Zealand. Without exception, every one of them are respectful and courteous. I wish I could say the same for some of the American kids I've met!

Is there a recognized school Down Under that trains cadets for seamanship, because there sure are a lot of them working on board yachts in South Florida.

[YachtForums]

You know, I've noticed the same thing. At the Ft. Lauderdale International Boat Show it's even more appearant, as you hear the Aussie accents everywhere. In speaking with those from Down Under, they are so friendly, it makes you want to visit the Land of Oz.

I don't know if there are any Maritime or Naval schools Down Under, but there have certainly been alot of notable marine technologies originating from them, particularly in cutting edge hull designs and propulsion systems.

Maybe someone else on the board can share a little light on the subject.

[oldyachtie]

The Aussies and Kiwis are valuable crew members for a number of reasons. Number one: as you have already ascertioned they are open and very friendly to both the people they work with as well as those they work for (at times this can be "over friendly, but they learn easily where the lines should be drawn).

Number Two: Most have a natural affinity for all things concerning the water, which makes sense considering that the vast majority of the Aussie population (and the Kiwis, and the South Africans) live on the coastline, largely warm water at that. They're certified divers, sailors, and certified out the wazoo on the first aid stuff before they even look for a yacht job.

Number Three: They speak English (often better English than the average American of the same age!), the number one prerequisite in the yachting industry, and they have garnered a reputation for being very, very hard workers, and they do it with a smile on their faces and a laugh, no whining!

About twenty odd years ago tales began to filter back to Oz and the related countries about these great jobs on yachts, and enough of it was remembered the following morning to spark a consisitent migration to yachting centers in hopes of finding their own spots on yachts. Good on them I say.

I can think of a bunch more, but how's that for starters?
Is that enough?

[trouty]

An island continent......

You've probably all heard that quote at one time or another - the usual second half of it, often not quoted goes something like.....

...surrounded by recreational anglers!

Most Aussie kids grow up in or around boats. In the main it doesn't snow here - the water doesn't freeze over - in an short time an Aussie boater can garner a lifetimes equivalent experience to someone located stateside, where the boating seasons can be short.

Being overfriendly to an employer and learning where the line should be drawn.....well....you may think so - but you can bet - with most Aussies the employer gets the respect his cash demands, and not an ounce more - any respect above n beyond that the employer earns the hard way, one good deed after another, just the same way every other 'digger' downunder does!

Why are they all in the USA?

Well...Gratuities is your answer.

Downunder if you get a job - your expected to perform like a slave, manservant, etc - just for the privelege of having gainfull employment and the community respect that comes with it.

You work for someone you give 110% and your thankfull for your pay - thats just how it is.

In America - if you work with an Aussie work ethic - thats called "exemplary service" and the employer throws gratuitys at you.

Downunder - thats called "money for jam" (something for nothing) an Aussie would under normal circumstances give you that level of service just out of thanks for giving him a job in the first place - we don't expect gratuities within our culture.

If I as an Aussie gave a fellow Aussie in my employ a gratuity - it might well earn me a smack in the mouth with a knuckle sandwich.

Reason? - the recipient might think I consider him some sort of charity case, in which case he'd be highly offended (even if he was a charity case!) and likely respond with violence.

So - a place where standards of living are higher, and where idiots give away money for the same standard of service we expect as "normal" seems like a pretty lucrative place for an Aussie to go n put together a quick grubstake to get you on your feet back home!.

I well recall the first US guest I guided downunder, who made the mistake of offering me a gratuity (I believe you call it a tip?).
To us a Tip iss either:-

A) the name of a dead certainty winner at the horse races

or

B) A usefull lifetime advice anectdote like,

Always be kind to your mother...or - always apply your park brake on a hill!

Anyway, he never made the same mistake a second time - your welcome to your own customs at home, and when we are in your home we should abide by those customs.

By the same token - when your in our Home, please leave the American customs at home. If I quote someone a price for a job for a day thats my price, it isn't 'negotiable' either up or down - the price IS the price and thats whats expected and for that you should get 110% service or better!.

We don't barter, dicker or tip, it's as simple as that. We call a spade a spade we dont call it a shovel!

As for their nautical skills - well - if you saw the seas we grow up with and contend with every day, you'd understand why Aussies can sail from the time they can swim.

If we didn't go to sea in big seas we'd never go...we'd always stay home - I read US boards about 25 fters going out in REAL 2 - 3'fters and thinking 4'fters are big - whereas most aussies think nothing of going out in 8ftrs in smaller boats than 25 ft

I see twin OB's (and triples) and they are always 225 hp or 250 hp on US boats - downunder gas is like 3 bucks plus a gallon...we go out with ONE outboard of - 90 - 115hp.....

Boat tow US doesnt exist if you don't plan to go out an back - then likely it ends as a one way trip...coz no ones comming to save your sorry azz.

I see US boats capable of doing 50 mph offshore and realise that downunder the only boat ever went 50mph was on a trailer on the freeway on the way to the launch ramp - we just don't get the seas that will let you do much over 18 - 22 knots comfortable cruise on a good day!

We do have special schools for training kids in boating...

An example is my own 16 year old son...

He is studying a "Marine & outdoors education" course...which involves a lot of hands on ocean experience in all manner of craft.
by the time he completes his 12th year of schooling at the end of this year 2004, at the age of 17 he will be qualified in:-

Aquaculture
Small boat Handling
Navigation
Marine radio Operator
First Aid
Lifesaving (bronze Medallion..of the Royal Life Saving Society)
Surfing
Fishing
Scuba Diving
Water Skiing
Sea Kayaking
Canoeing
etc

And a heap of stuff I've probably omitted...he will have sailed in schooner on the open seas for a fortnight - gone away on a fishing camp, canoeing camp - rock climbing camp, sea Kayaking you name it he will have completed it and demostrated his ability to utilise the knowlege and skils he's been taught and end up being qualified in it.

Now - to get into this course there were only 16 kids selected to participate (this is a state of 2 million people). At the age of 16 he has to sign a CONTRACT with the school undertaking to meet certain expectations academically, socially and behaviour wise, right down to the nitty gritty of wearing the school uniform every day regardles of what other kids (peer group) do.

If the kids mess up (in terms of meeting their contractual obligations to the school) - they are OUT of the course and go back to normal curriculum (or leave and get a job in the REAL world!).

These kids usually graduate & find a job in a marine / aquaculture / tourism /outdoors activities industry etc, as they are highly sought after by industry due to the level of maturity & personal responsibility they have to display in order to get into the course in the first place and then stick it out for 2 years to finally pass.

Some of the kids will pass out and go straight into deck hands positions on working Lobster boats to get their commecial sea time up in order to get a coxswains and later masters certificate to skipper their own vessels.

Some will stick at the lobster industry some will end up in pearl farming aquaculture and so on and so forth...

Yes - we train our kids in Marine studies from a young age - not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, politician or rocket scientist. This world needs those who have REAL hand skills who can DO things that sometimes educated folks only dream about - we don't look down on such kids as being academic underachievers in the normal curricular system - we just look at them as square pegs in round holes - so we find em a square hole where they can be happy and achieve to their potential.

Seems to work.

Hopefully my young fella will work in the Lobster Industry long enough (2 years) to get his qualification to skipper one of my vessels and then come work for me in the Charter industry.

Once I think he can manage the people and business side of the industry - and he is mature enough in his outllook and behaviour - likely I will give him a vessel and one of my Charter licenses and send him off on his own to give it his best shot and make his own way in life.

If he messes that up - well itwill be up to him from there on in - you can only do so much for your kids before they have to stand on their own two feet andbecome their own man.

I think you will find most Aussies are pretty down to earth types - we don't have a lot of time for class distinction, and tend to judge people as we find them. Most Aussies are nobodys fool - while they may be polite, hard working, always laughing and with a big grin on their dial - you'll likely find they have already 'judged' the people they work for and know well - their strengths weaknesses foibles and achilles heel - they just might not let on theres more inside their heads than sawdust...

You see they also learn how to be good at bluff poker from a yong age and it's never wise to tip ones hand...specially to an employer.

Lots of those Aussies got their degrees from the school of hard knocks, and can likely hold their own in most any company. Most will be imbued with a generous serving of common sense. Many will be quite inventive and great lateral thinkers. Necessity is after all the mother of invention.

Anyone underestimates an Aussie is setting themselves up for a fall.

As far as being a friendly place to visit - well - yes we are - BUT - you need to be under no misapprehension..Americans downunder are for us locals a conundrum...it's what might almost be classed a love / hate relationship...

You see we are eternally greatfull for the fact that McArthur did return and saved our bacon - without the Battle of the Coral sea and the huge number of Amrican lives lost - most Aussies (at least those of us who remember our history) know, that....without that I'd be typing "Konichiwah...oldyachtiesan, whatashiwa niji masu san to moshie masu, ogenkie desu kah?".

part 11 follows

[trouty]

So - yes Americans as our allies are indeed well liked downunder.

Among the older generations however who actually lived thru world war 2 - SOME have some bitter memories of Americans stationed here during the war... (this is the bit they don't teach you in your schools history classes).

You see our own diggers entered the war at the very start due to our relationship with mother England. Our boys fought in just about all the various theatres, Africa against Rommel (the rats of tobruk) Europe - the battle of Brittain air wars, The Pacific Indonesia, Singapore etc etc we had been there & losing men since Hitler went into Poland in 1939.

By contrast you guys entered the war in what 1941?..when the Japs bombed pearl harbour?...

Anyway to make a long story short..our guys were ALWAYS the cannon fodder for Churchill...we always got the jobs no one else wanted to do...(the Kiwis were with us of course)...

So - after what almost 5 years of war finally some of our boys are up in the islands - on the Kokoda trail fighting for Singapore and so on..while others are in Africa etc.

When McArthurs men lobbed in Australia, our womenfolk had been missing (& losing) sweethearts, fiances, husbands etc for 4 years...and our men hadn't been home, period, in all that time.

Americans arrived here and were VERY well paid in comparison to our own troops, and of course they entertained a lot of the ladies and won a lot of hearts..

Many Aussies away serving the Queen in foreign lands who got the inevitable Dear John letters after 4 years of fighting - thought that was VERY unfair indeed...no Aussie minds a fair fight - but sneakin in and mowing the lawn while the mans away is considered a very "unaustralian" thing to do.

You will find some among those in their 70's here downunder haven't forgotten the Americans - the cry at the time from our boys was that those Americans are

"overpaid and overhere!"

So - it's a love / hate relationship with our older generation, many of whom haven't forgotten things like how long it took for the Americans to join WW2 and the 'problems' with troops stationed here while our men were still away in the various theatres of war.

Indeed Chrchill countermanded a direct order from the Australian prime minister of the time, directing all Australian troops home to defend the homeland from invasion by the Japanese (they were bombing Darwin by then) and Churchill diverted the English troop vessels to Africa rather than allow our own troops home to defend their own women and kids.

This and the fact that MCArthurs men were cutting a swathe thru our womenfolk made MANY Australians (not just those serving) very resentful of the American presence in Australia at the time.

Indeed in Queensland there was even am armed clash between American trops stationed here and some reserves troops (homeland guard) in which one Aussie was killed....the news papers of the time played it down...but fact is - there was for a brief moment a small groundswell of genuine ill will toward American soldiers stationed here...sufficient to result in exchange of fire from armed Australians...on American troops!.

The feeling was that our own men should have been home to defend this nation, no one minded Americans being our allies...but for our guys not to be here when they should have been, and at the same time the Americans were here and displaying overt signs of wealth etc while we had been thru 4 or 5 years of great Austerity (food rationing etc) and lost so many of our own men on foreign shores - just rubbed salt into open wounds. Tempers here were pretty short by that stage of the war.

Make no mistakes...we like Americans - and we are a fairly friendly lot, BUT - deep down - we hold a few 'unresolved' reservations about Americans too.

Interestingly - when I taught a visiting group of young American students from some Eastern university (Masachutsets?) studying anthropology here a couple years back - some of the girls in their early 20's? actually "asked" me outright "what Australians thought of Americans?".

You see, they had experienced some unusual behaviour from young Australian men at hotels & night clubs etc - who would show interest in the girls, until they heard the american accent...at which point they would focus ther attentions back closer to home...on the local girls.

The visiting American girls at first dismissed it as some communications break down, but after repeated similar experiences in different venues on consecutive nights - they all decided they weren't imagining it...

They plucked up the courage to ask me - if i knew what was going on?.

Obviously - these lads have heard stories from their older family members from the period late in the war When Americans were stationed here with McArthur.

No, we don't hate all Americans - but trust me we don't love em to death either - it's a certain 'ambivalence' if you like - we are rather non committal. We don't dislike nor do we love em- we just tolerate them and take each one as we find them...

Sure visit the place and get to know the locals, but don't expect us to fall to the ground en mass in some adoration ceremony. It aint gonna happen - you'll be most welcome and judged individually on your merits.

Most Aussies will grant you the benefit of the doubt at first meeting - where you go with it from there is entirely up to you!

Cheers!

[sethius]

there are so many of us aussie and kiwis round because we are surrounded by beatiful lakes and coast. perfect conditions..
and we ppl luv the water. And gettin to these places is simple as pie. U should cum to aus cause it kicks ass!!! v

PS. we have one of the hardest races and a few good yacht makers.

[YachtForums]

To the top...

[chrismlewis]

Simply put from a Capt (foreign flag) perspective:

I have had more success hiring crew from resumes when I ask for Ozzies and Kiwis. They cost the owner less, they work longer hours, they have a better attitude to me and the guests; also as the majority of the crew on my commands will be from overseas they will "get" the other crew members; and their enthusiasm and moral feeds off each other's hard working, co-operative atmosphere. Not very PC, but that is my limited experience.

Now before all you American & other guys jump down my throat, I know that the above is a gross generalization, but I have to play the averages when hiring to give myself the best chance of having a great crew. It has worked this way so far anyway.....

[trouty]

Probably what sets the temperament of Aussie crew is their apprenticeship at sea largely in the commercial fishing sector.

Usually they are placed on an incentive scheme.... a share of the catch.

One Lobser boat skipper I know - pays his deck hand Aus$180,000 a year (~US$124K) as a share of the catch (It's an 8 month "season"), the Skipper clears more than 1 Million per vessel annually and has a fleet of 3.

The deck hand shows up every day for 8 months, thats some 240 odd days without a break - thru rain and sleet sun and heat, tropical ulcers, bad back - you name it, he shows up...

Without the deck hand the boat can't go to sea, every day lost = a $4-5000 loss...

Thats a big responsibility, especially when its every year for sometimes 10 years or more before a deck hand will garner enough experience money and sea time to get his own skippers ticket and possibly lease a boat and license - pots etc to go work on his own...

Thats what sets our guys apart, there is no easey route to being a capt...they work and take the responsibility, and it sets a great ethic.

They get rewarded in terms of what they earn...

That deckhand is earning as much (More?) than double down is offering a captan to take on a 70 ft Hatteras...

If he sticks it out he will likely end up leasing a boat and license, making 1 $Million a year + (Less bait Fuel and deckhands wages.)

At times, that deckhand will be skippering the boat on his own with a deckhgand to help him (He already has the Coxswains cert or Masters V in some cases).

The owner will work the boat during the start of the season when catch is high, and a lot pf $ are to be made.

Later whe the catch drops off and earnings are down - the owner will stay home and the deckhand will skipper the boat on a share of the catch basis.

The Owner has 3 boats he operates this way...on a share of the catch basis - by providing the vessel - license and pots...he gets 40% of the catch if he stays home (and about 80% if he skippers it himself).

So with 3 boats and licenses and sets of traops - he can stay home on 40% of 1 $Million a year + from each of 3 boats....or 1.2 Million for staying home.

The crew get their sea time up at the helm when the skipper stays home...which helps them when they want to upgrade their qualifications.

These guys basically are can do types who are used to hard worlk and long hours, but they expect to get well paid because they KNOW what their labours are bringing the owner in fiscal return.

Theres lots of great crew downunder, but you'd have to throw a LOT of $ at most of them to coax them away from the lifestyle & $ they already are earning.

Not saying the idea of a holiday stateside working on a luxury boat wouldn't be attarctive to them...you see the 4 months closed season is dureing our winter (Your summer = peak boating activity time!).

Any Aussie who can make Aus $180K in 8 Months commercial fishing downunder then fly to the US for a 4 months "working holday" stint on a luxury yacht and clear another ~50K US...is doing it pretty good.

That sorta income buys a lot of corona's and bilkini clad wenches.

Ohh - to be young again!

Cheers!

[aeronautic1]

They be down-under paid and over here. Look, I cannot legally run a blue flagged yacht (and I applied for an Australian work visa/was denighed) downunder yet these blokes hop on an airliner with a visitor's visa and jump US flagged yachts for less than American captains have work long and hard for (I have 30 years in the business). If Arrrrstralia is such a great place, then talk your lads into staying home and leave my flagged vessels alone! Let's know forget where the orginaly settlers to Australia come from and why.

[chrismlewis]

I hope that was a jest aeronautic!

The West Oz coast guys do very well, but work much harder for their living, and the places are very limited. The dive & fish boats on the East coast work equally hard, and for much less money. Try getting a US stew/ deck hand to work the same hours, work load, danger, rotation schedule etc

As far as immigration goes the vast majority of "foreigners" here that I have come across have a B1/ B2 which as well as being a long term tourist visa is also a non-immigrant business visa. The only seaman's visa that the US has is the C1/D that is only good for stays of 28 days max.

As the penalties against the boat are $5000 per person for bringing crew in to the USA without proper visas I would never employ anyone without it.

As for flags, don't get me started. You are very well qualified and experienced (I don't remember your exact details, but I read another message with your marine and aero qualifications). You can work on almost any flag around the world including the red flag boats if you take the couple of short courses. The US, as usual has refused to play the IMO treaties; I am also very well qualified and experienced (over 500,000n miles) but I cannot get certified to work on US Flagged yachts by merit of my internationally accepted STCW 95 tickets.

The main problem for guys with experience right now is that the insurance companies have the bar too low, so anyone with a class 4 can and do get jobs running 50m+ yachts. They have the power to ensure that these guys have trained, on the job, as mates, under a properly qualified Captain before they get command (the owners don't seem to get the intricate details). I know that in the age of sail command was achieved by the early to mid 20s, but these guys had been at sea every day since the age of 15. If the losses incurred at the hands of inexperienced or badly trained Capts & crews were studied, maybe the premiums would be discounted for well trained and qualifed personnel?