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Proteksan & Turquoise Superyacht "Yogi" Sinks!

 
 
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:08 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Hi,

This yacht might well be UMS which means there doesn't need to be someone in the ER or ECR they just have to be able to respond to Alarms.
That's true. However, there is nothing that substitutes for a good visual check every hour just to see that nothing is brewing that could turn into a disaster.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:01 AM   #32 (permalink)
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That's true. However, there is nothing that substitutes for a good visual check every hour just to see that nothing is brewing that could turn into a disaster.
Some light reading:
What are the Essential Requirements for Unattended Machinery Space (UMS) Ship? | Marine Insight

Being there without being there:
Raymarine Marine Electronics - Marine Cameras
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:15 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Hi,

The Points A.B and D in your first link do not apply to yachts as most if not all are fitted with High Speed Diesels.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capt J View Post
That's true. However, there is nothing that substitutes for a good visual check every hour just to see that nothing is brewing that could turn into a disaster.
Hi,

It might surprise you to learn how many modern ships are run UMS, there are no statute requirements for anyone to enter the machinery spaces to check things are working as there is a comprehensive alarm system monitoring the whole operation or the ship should not have it's UMS Class Notation.

Should part of the Alarm and Monitoring System related to UMS Operations not be in full working order however there is no option in my book other than to return to a fully manned engine room.

You might also be interested to learn that there is a strong push from a certain large Container Ship operator for Un Manned Bridges these days. It is being strongly resisted by the Flag State from what I hear but do not expect the idea to be abandoned till it has been at least tried a few times.

It has also met extreme resistance from another FS Representative I asked about the concept over dinner one night.
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:36 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Hi,
You might also be interested to learn that there is a strong push from a certain large Container Ship operator for Un Manned Bridges these days. It is being strongly resisted by the Flag State from what I hear but do not expect the idea to be abandoned till it has been at least tried a few times.

It has also met extreme resistance from another FS Representative I asked about the concept over dinner one night.
I'm sure the container operators would like to have UnManned Ships eventually. They could board a docking crew at the sea buoy and reverse the process leaving. The docking crew wouldn't even have to program the ships next destination as that could be done by satellite from corporate HQ. I think the technology exists today, or is very close. There might be some objection from sailors expected to share the ocean with 1,000' long robotic ships.

Last edited by wscott52; 02-18-2012 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:33 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Of interesting note; the February issue of PMY, page 32, comparing 5 star hotels with Megayachts, make comment of Yogi just getting purchased by a French hospitality group. Also states "the first megayacht to fly the French flag". No comment on her build or class.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:56 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by K1W1 View Post
Hi,

It might surprise you to learn how many modern ships are run UMS, there are no statute requirements for anyone to enter the machinery spaces to check things are working as there is a comprehensive alarm system monitoring the whole operation or the ship should not have it's UMS Class Notation.

Should part of the Alarm and Monitoring System related to UMS Operations not be in full working order however there is no option in my book other than to return to a fully manned engine room.

You might also be interested to learn that there is a strong push from a certain large Container Ship operator for Un Manned Bridges these days. It is being strongly resisted by the Flag State from what I hear but do not expect the idea to be abandoned till it has been at least tried a few times.

It has also met extreme resistance from another FS Representative I asked about the concept over dinner one night.
I understand that there are no requirements to have the engine room manned or checked on, if the ship has it's UMS. However, there is no requirement on the smaller pleasure yachts to do engine room checks, yet every prudent Captain I know does them or has them done on a frequent basis.... every hour or two.

I'm fully aware of engine room camera's and their merits as well. However, the camera's cannot see everything, and you can detect things early by physically seeing, smelling, and hearing whats going on in the engine room with a quick minute or two check. I've personally detected several things during an engine room check that we didn't see on the camera's......such as the circulation pump on a 16v2000 leaking a good amount in which we were able to take the cap off, add coolant periodically, and got into port 150 miles away without the engine overheating......among other things......an electrical engine fire on a Marquis a minute after the engine was started, and another Marquis where the starter stayed engaged and was smoking and about to catch fire and a few others.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:38 AM   #38 (permalink)
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No comment on her build or class.
From the yard's webpages:
• Builder: Proteksan Turquoise Yachts Inc.
• Exterior Styling: Proteksan Turquoise Yachts Inc. / Jean Guy Verges
• Interior Styling: Jean Guy Verges
• Naval Architect: Proteksan Turquoise Yachts Inc.
• Classification: ABS, +A1, +AMS, Commercial Yachting Services, (E)
• MCA Compliancy: MCA LY2
• Construction: Steel hull & Aluminium superstructure
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:52 AM   #39 (permalink)
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First Proteksan response

There is an interview with the CEO of Proteksan on the Boat International news page with some further technical details - she apparently took 7h to go down, from first mayday.

Not sure if posting a link would be allowed here ...
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:55 AM   #40 (permalink)
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CaptJ I could not agree with you more on the importance of laying eyes, ears and nose on ER happenings - frequently. Not only the ER though, but other places where major through hulls exist such as rudders. On too many vessels, underwater exhausts are not designed properly with water inflow potential well beyond the bilge or crash pump capacity. Would Yogi's exhausts have been above or below normal waterline?

My wife feels the best use of an ER camera is to watch me as I check out things in the ER. High on the list of requirements should be ready ER access. Surprisingly, some very nice vessels require you to access the ER by going out in the rain, wind or spray to enter the ER.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:36 AM   #41 (permalink)
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There is an interview with the CEO of Proteksan on the Boat International news page with some further technical details - she apparently took 7h to go down, from first mayday.

Not sure if posting a link would be allowed here ...

From that article...

"‘We have [already] sent people to Athens who will meet with the crew and interview them; we’re doing everything we can to understand what happened. There will be the testimony of crew and the video. You can see water coming out of the side and power on the vessel [ie lights were on] so the generators were running – you can tell many things, so the engine room was not flooded. You can see [in the video] exhaust coming from the hull side so one of engine room generators was running.”

Karabeyoglu also told us that in addition to being able to use the engines to pump water out, there were three bilge pumps, one more than class required. The yacht had three generators plus the emergency generator."
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:10 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Unfortunatly I don't think we will get an official verdict for some time and will have to work through piles of conjecture and speculation in the meanwhile. That said, I do have a few comments, questions and concerns.

1. We can rule out wear and tare or corrosion related failure due to the fact that it was a new vessel.

2. If there was a catastrophic failure of the underwater exhaust on engines that size there would be very little the crew could do to stem the flow of water - probably a 14-18" hole about 4-8ft below the waterline.

3. If this were the case, I cannot understand why isolating the engine room watertight bulkhead didn't isolate the water to the ER? Stability calculations should have allowed for a fairly stabile vessel even with a completely flooded engine room scenario. Was the ER bulkhead door ever closed?

4. The captain is quoted as saying they lost engine power and something about the exhaust. He never said that the exhaust actually caused the flooding - it may have just been the cause of the engine failure. Yogi sported 2 beach clubs and a large opening transom door. Perhaps the flooding was not in the engine room but rather in this stern area due to a shell door failure or something - she is distinctly stern down in the photos. She also had very large windows/port holes just above the waterline- failure o one of them could have been disastrous too. Just a thought.

5. Why there were only 8 crew aboard a vessel of that size? Having commanded a similar sized yacht quite recently we operated with 14-16 crew. Even on deliveries we never operated with less than 12 crew. This is not only necessary for meeting the minimum watch keeping requirements, but also to allow for sufficient competent crew to manage an emergency situation (such as this). The charter sites are advertising that she chartered with a crew of 15. The synical side of me has to wonder if 8 crew was a convenient number to rescue in case of loss of the vessel (joking of course)

6. There was definitely still electrical power as the lights were on. But I agree that it was most light running off an emergency generator or the emergency lighting batteries. According to the plans the emergency generator is located right behind the bridge. The water pumping out could be from an emergency bilge pump.

I hope that the French flag state will prove to be as efficient as the British MIAB and issue an accident report in due course, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I just hope that once the dust settles, lessons can be learned whether relating to construction / design, or operational procedures.

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Old 02-20-2012, 06:31 AM   #43 (permalink)
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2. If there was a catastrophic failure of the underwater exhaust on engines that size there would be very little the crew could do to stem the flow of water - probably a 14-18" hole about 4-8ft below the waterline.

The underwater part of it wouldn't be that deep in the water as the BP when running would be way above the max allowable. The get a full size hole some part of it would have needed to drop off. If it did fail catastrophically the most likely failure is a split around the weld to the shell plating by an improperly supported section allowing stress and strain to be applied to the shell plate to pipe weld itself causing a cyclical fatigue type cracking.

3. If this were the case, I cannot understand why isolating the engine room watertight bulkhead didn't isolate the water to the ER? Stability calculations should have allowed for a fairly stabile vessel even with a completely flooded engine room scenario. Was the ER bulkhead door ever closed?

These were my thoughts in an earlier reply, also poor glanding and any unclosed bulkhead penetrations could have been all that was needed to turn a casualty into a total loss

4. The captain is quoted as saying they lost engine power and something about the exhaust. He never said that the exhaust actually caused the flooding - it may have just been the cause of the engine failure. Yogi sported 2 beach clubs and a large opening transom door. Perhaps the flooding was not in the engine room but rather in this stern area due to a shell door failure or something - she is distinctly stern down in the photos. She also had very large windows/port holes just above the waterline- failure o one of them could have been disastrous too. Just a thought.

A good thought too, Shell Doors and waterline windows are always recipes for disaster unless well engineered and constructed, I wonder if she had storm shutters fitted to those windows?



6. There was definitely still electrical power as the lights were on. But I agree that it was most light running off an emergency generator or the emergency lighting batteries. According to the plans the emergency generator is located right behind the bridge. The water pumping out could be from an emergency bilge pump.

Another clue to the loss of main Genset electrical power is the flopped fin which I doubt would have been turned off as a part of the preps to abandon ship.

I hope that the French flag state will prove to be as efficient as the British MIAB and issue an accident report in due course, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I just hope that once the dust settles, lessons can be learned whether relating to construction / design, or operational procedures.

The Pommie outfit is actually the MAIB, given that I have read that this was built to a French version of the MCA Code it will be interesting to see if the cause was attributed to any shortfall of the supposedly cheaper version of the code.
Your attachment lead to a dead link when I tried it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:16 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Proteksan Turquoise's statement to the incident.
She has been the yard for some paint work and was on the way to the Mediterranen.

News
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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From Boat International's web site (quoting with attribution ;o))

"...Responding to our question about an exhaust system accident and loss of engine power reported by the crew, Karabeyoglu comments, “They have said it was mechanical failure, that one engine overheated, and broke the exhaust bellows – but there’s a valve underneath it.”..."
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