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Proteksan & Turquoise Superyacht "Yogi" Sinks!

 
 
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Hi,

There is a whisper that the insurance is the big issue.

I am afraid we will never see the real truth of this , it will turn into another Robert Maxwell type yachting mystery before we know it.

I will certainly be paying extra attention to any CV's I see where this vessel is listed as a previous ride.
You could be right on this. As I see it, there appears to be three possibilities currently.

1. There was a design error or fault that contributed to the sinking.

2. Human error or failure to follow procedures that caused the sinking.

3. Deliberate scuttling for insurance purposes.

There will be plenty of lawyers and insurance claim adjusters working this case.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:19 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Hi carelm, I think that even if there was 1 or 2, on its own it would probably not cause the sinking... i.e. I would tend to believe that it was more of a chain of events that led to catastrophic failure...

Also, it is perhaps quite possible that the troubles started a while before the mayday call... Something catastrophic did happen that enough water entered the vessel to take it down, nonetheless it may have started and even been noticed as a small issue many hours before... perhaps even dismissed, or perhaps addressed but not to its full necessity or maybe it was masked, yada, yada... basically I think that the yacht didnt fail miserably from one moment to the next (7hrs from mayday to sinking is an indication, basically it took 7 hours after the vessel was deemed in grave danger for it to sucumb, so it didnt "just fail")... Further, there isnt any obvious and decisive sign of crew wrongdoing at this point, so it isnt possible to deem this human error...

key operative frase imo.... "chain of events"...
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:35 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Whats the point? and where is the evidence that the yard is questionable?
Please refrain from posting in such as way as to imply that I made any statement that brought into question the quality of the yard or its products.

Quite the opposite is true as should be easily understood by reading my statement:

"That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the builder, class surveyor, architect, or anyone's ego."
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:39 PM   #139 (permalink)
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According to the last available AIS graph, she was anchored for few hours between 20:30Hours on the 15th and 05:10Hours on the 16th, then had a heading of 201degrees at 05:17hours on the 16th doing 8.6knts. After that went stealth (Even though not running with owner or guests and in friendly waters). Could that be a part of the chain or just they pre-planned resting? I am saying so just to favor considering all aspects because the mayday call went off after almost 19 hours of setting sail.

Cheers.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:28 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Hi carelm, I think that even if there was 1 or 2, on its own it would probably not cause the sinking... i.e. I would tend to believe that it was more of a chain of events that led to catastrophic failure...

Also, it is perhaps quite possible that the troubles started a while before the mayday call... Something catastrophic did happen that enough water entered the vessel to take it down, nonetheless it may have started and even been noticed as a small issue many hours before... perhaps even dismissed, or perhaps addressed but not to its full necessity or maybe it was masked, yada, yada... basically I think that the yacht didnt fail miserably from one moment to the next (7hrs from mayday to sinking is an indication, basically it took 7 hours after the vessel was deemed in grave danger for it to sucumb, so it didnt "just fail")... Further, there isnt any obvious and decisive sign of crew wrongdoing at this point, so it isnt possible to deem this human error...

key operative frase imo.... "chain of events"...
I noticed you didn't address possibility 3. No doubt looking at it from strictly an accident reconstruction point of view, a chain of events will be operative. My line of thinking is that no one wants to be holding a $100M or so bag (my estimate of the yacht). The shipbuilders' insurance/lawyer team will likely press for human error while the owners' counterparts will likely press for design error/fault. A "chain of events" conclusion may include both or some other cause as well.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:34 PM   #141 (permalink)
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1. There was a design error or fault ...

2. Human error or failure to follow procedures ...
1 and 2 together virtually assure the vessel's loss.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Sounds a bit like the Bertram SF that "hit a buoy" a few years ago and sank real quick, still a mystery I believe ??
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Some of the posts above seem to imply that the insurance would not pay the claim in case of human error. I have no experience filing and dealing with claims but it seems to me that human error is covered. Illegal or fraudulent acts, no; gross negligence, no; but human error is covered.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:09 PM   #144 (permalink)
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I noticed you didn't address possibility 3. No doubt looking at it from strictly an accident reconstruction point of view, a chain of events will be operative. My line of thinking is that no one wants to be holding a $100M or so bag (my estimate of the yacht). The shipbuilders' insurance/lawyer team will likely press for human error while the owners' counterparts will likely press for design error/fault. A "chain of events" conclusion may include both or some other cause as well.
On purpose hehehe Possibility 3 doesnt require a chain of events, it just requires....well, possiblity 3 itself... but in all honesty I'm kinda skeptical about 3... it wasnt a "stale" product (i.e. tried to sell and wasnt able, etc), I dont see a big reason? although its always a possiblity... likely there were easier/quicker bail-outs of the yacht than sinking her?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmot
Please refrain from posting in such as way as to imply that I made any statement that brought into question the quality of the yard or its products.

Quite the opposite is true as should be easily understood by reading my statement:

"That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with the builder, class surveyor, architect, or anyone's ego."
You said: Did you forget to put a smiley after that statement? in response to the "reputable yard" reference by 3ala2, unless i'm mistaken you were being sarcastic, i.e. imply what I interpreted as a questionable (not-reputable) yard? did I misunderstand the comment?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmot
1 and 2 together virtually assure the vessel's loss.
Alas we agree totally!

cheers and have a great weekend guys!
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:05 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Some of the posts above seem to imply that the insurance would not pay the claim in case of human error. I have no experience filing and dealing with claims but it seems to me that human error is covered. Illegal or fraudulent acts, no; gross negligence, no; but human error is covered.
I have had a lot of experience with yacht insurance claims and, in most cases, claims based on human error. You are exactly correct that human error is covered. Run it up on the rocks at full throttle at night while making out with your secretary? Covered. Drill a bunch of holes in the hull and (when that doesn't sink it fast enough) cut the hoses on five raw water intakes? Not covered.

Yep...both of these are actual events.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:36 PM   #146 (permalink)
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I do believe that any professional crew that will be permenant on a ship should be sent to a training and testing facility even if they just finished training or survived a disaster, that is how I play ball.
HI,

Given this as a procedure when would you suggest that the crew actually gain practical experience?

Who would you suggest foots the bill for the cost of the courses and accommodation etc for the crew undertaking this training?

Last edited by K1W1; 03-02-2012 at 11:36 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:43 PM   #147 (permalink)
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According to the last available AIS graph, she was anchored for few hours between 20:30Hours on the 15th and 05:10Hours on the 16th, then had a heading of 201degrees at 05:17hours on the 16th doing 8.6knts. After that went stealth (Even though not running with owner or guests and in friendly waters). Could that be a part of the chain or just they pre-planned resting? I am saying so just to favor considering all aspects because the mayday call went off after almost 19 hours of setting sail.

Cheers.
Hi,

AIS only works within VHF range. Outside this the vessel will be invisible to PC based observers where the data is gathered from shore based VHF Antennas.

The loss of a vessel on the marine traffic website does not necessarily mean anything nasty or suspicious about the vessel or it's operation.

Watch ships crossing the Bay of Biscay - They will drop off the screen and reappear at the other side.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:13 AM   #148 (permalink)
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I did not mean that something nasty has happened and I think they were still in VHF range due to the fact that they were in a relatively small body of water doing a passage between islands. And I was referring to AIS data for time relation only, bacause I see that AIS will continue to work since other lights were on so it is not in any way related to the trouble they had.

For your previous post, and as an owner of two charter yachts, when the I did the employment I paid for the due cost, it made me sleep better and waste less money calling the sat phone after every bad dream, now both yachts are managed but I have also made the managing company agree to a deal, lets say we kind of split the costs. I also don't feel bad when a captain orders a simulation of a situation unlike some owners who don't allow testing the life boats after being packed in the canister for few years and past the suggested maintanence.

Cheers.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:28 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Hi,

You have an interesting way of operating for an Owner, it's a shame more do not follow this philosophy.

I am yet to encounter a management co that will dip into their own coffers to fund anything to do with a Client's yacht or yachts. That is truly something out of the ordinary.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:55 AM   #150 (permalink)
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There are two problems that made the operators be like that:

1) Almost all consider yachting is like riding in a chauffeur driven luxury sedan while it is living within a small contained community. The least if one does not want to consider that this community is remote and self sufficent even when at dock.

2) No one really looks at it like a real business, it is actually your company and you are responsible of it; its assets, employees and clients. If yacht management companies spend the same percentage companies on dry land pay for saftey and security then the industry will be a role model for the planet, and I am not talking about the mandatory saftey regulations, I am talking about development and being ahead. I have learnt that after an unfortunate incident where a diabetic stewardess suffered a seizure and the other members thought she had just drank a bit too much, that lost life made me decide that not less of 10% of the crew should be certified EMS technician, even if I had to pay, it is nothing beside a lost life.

If only many of the yacht owners and charter management companies enjoy boating and try and be the crew for a day, the standards that we all set to our selves would be much higher.

May all sea farers be safe at sail or dock.

Cheers.
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