[Pelagic Dreams]

Cheap fuel.....well sort of cheap...has kept diesel as the primary source of yacht propulsion. Even though the ultra rich don't really care of the cost, what about the "average" yacht owner? Will the rising cost of fuel bump start the electric/solar tech to get something that can sustain a yacht over the long haul? More than anything else, I see that fuel costs will doom this industry faster than any other factor. Will sail come back as a viable alternative? There will be a fracture point where owners cannot afford the grand adventure of life at sea, and will be stuck at the dock via shore power. That worries me....a bunch.

[carelm]

I think you might see some more hybrid solutions that you mentioned. You might also see some more motor-sailer type yachts that use more advanced sails as well as solar sails. While moored, these may also have some wind turbines as well.

[Savasa]

Morning all,
PD. You raise a valid concern for the "average" yacht owner but keeping in mind that fuel concerns, depending on "mileage" and hours per year can be a small percentage of a vessels yearly operating costs, it could be that the cost vs. pleasure point has a way to go yet.
You got me thinking though...@ 7kts., Savasa burns about 4 gph which is about $16/hour ($4/gal diesel). Over an 8 hour day, that's $128! Is it worth it for me? So far.
For comparasin, my Jeep, gets about 20 mpg (highway) so for 1 hours running @ 70mph, it costs $14/hr @ $4/gal. (gasoline) and that's $112 for an 8 hour day. Golly, going to have to buy a Prius....
Peter

[NYCAP123]

Boaters tend to be traditionalist. Although the is experimentation in alternative fuel sources I don't see it making a big impact on the recreational boating market for many, many years. There are a lot of economic factors damaging the industry right now, and fuel cost may not be the worst culprit, but it's the most visible. As we look for cars that will go 40 mpg, the thought of burning 30, 50 or 80 gallons, at $4 or $5 per, every hour we cruise is intimidating. It's in our face every day when we drive our cars or turn on the news. Because of this I believe fuel cost are probably to most damaging single factor to the industry.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Pelagic Dreams

Cheap fuel.....well sort of cheap...has kept diesel as the primary source of yacht propulsion. Even though the ultra rich don't really care of the cost, what about the "average" yacht owner? Will the rising cost of fuel bump start the electric/solar tech to get something that can sustain a yacht over the long haul? More than anything else, I see that fuel costs will doom this industry faster than any other factor. Will sail come back as a viable alternative? There will be a fracture point where owners cannot afford the grand adventure of life at sea, and will be stuck at the dock via shore power. That worries me....a bunch.

I don't think the 'hybrid' technologies will take over as quickly as just slowing the vessels down to hull speeds will have a tremendous effect on fuel usage.

....And of course the return of the MotorSailer to a stature it once held. Naturally I believe the multihull motorsailer will figure in significantly when folks don't want to be limited to such slow hull speeds. The sailing rig portion needs to be simply to understand and operate, and maybe kite-assisted power will have a chance on those long distance cruisers.

I don't think these higher fuel prices (much higher) are that far off on the horizon. They already exist in many other parts of the world, and I would not be surprised to see $7-8 gal fuel in the USA within 2 years....particularly if we let Wall street speculators continue on without having margin limits imposed.

[Capt J]

I think it goes against the grain of Yacht Owners. If yacht owners were so conscerned with fuel efficiency, they'd be buying more full displacement motoryachts that are more fuel efficient than semi-displacement or planing. Or even switching to sail. But it seems speed is always a major consideration when an owner is looking to buy a yacht.

I don't think the Hybrid stuff is efficient enough even on land based situations. Everyone mentions a Prius. I was in VA and in a prius taxi cab, and talking to the driver. They have over 20 Prius', and they all got close to 45 MPG when new, then after 30,000 miles they all lost major fuel economy and averaged 32 mpg and nothing more......all of them in the fleet.....they had a few with less than 10k miles......and many of them with 50-120k miles. They also had some issues with various sensors and things on them. Also I've read that you have to drive them 230k miles in order for them to equal their negative environmental impact of all of the batteries and stuff. I think diesel is the way to go in vehicles and VW has been making diesel cars getting 50mpg for the last 3 decades.......starting with something like a 1980 diesel rabbit.......

[NYCAP123]

If yacht owners were so conscerned with fuel efficiency, they'd be buying more full displacement motoryachts that are more fuel efficient than semi-displacement or planing. Or even switching to sail.

Or just not buy boats or cut way down on their cruising, both of which are happening.

I don't think the Hybrid stuff is efficient enough even on land based situations. Everyone mentions a Prius. I was in VA and in a prius taxi cab, and talking to the driver. They have over 20 Prius', and they all got close to 45 MPG when new, then after 30,000 miles they all lost major fuel economy and averaged 32 mpg and nothing more......all of them in the fleet.....they had a few with less than 10k miles......and many of them with 50-120k miles. They also had some issues with various sensors and things on them. Also I've read that you have to drive them 230k miles in order for them to equal their negative environmental impact of all of the batteries and stuff. I think diesel is the way to go in vehicles and VW has been making diesel cars getting 50mpg for the last 3 decades.......starting with something like a 1980 diesel rabbit.......

That's very interesting information. However, I don't think diesel is the answer, at least not in the U.S.. They face one of the same problems as the alternative fuel options, lack of infrastructure. We don't have enough stations selling diesel on land,and those that do get their price. Plus the fuel tends to sit in the storage tanks much longer than the gas except at truck stops. There is also the opposition to pollution to deal with, higher maintenance labor costs and the fact that much of the auto usage in this country is short runs to the store, etc. where diesels don't fair well.
I'm especially surprised by that mpg number (32mpg). I'd never heard that before. My 10 year old 4 cylinder gas car started off with an avg. fuel burn of 29-31 mpg when new. Now it still gets 27-30mpg. That makes the hybrid very unappealing, especially when you tack on the added initial cost and the maintenance costs. Makes one wonder if the only real cure is less use of our vehicles, and that's not good news for manufacturers of boats or cars.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Or just not buy boats or cut way down on their cruising, both of which are happening.
That's very interesting information. However, I don't think diesel is the answer, at least not in the U.S.. They face one of the same problems as the alternative fuel options, lack of infrastructure. We don't have enough stations selling diesel on land,and those that do get their price. Plus the fuel tends to sit in the storage tanks much longer than the gas except at truck stops. There is also the opposition to pollution to deal with, higher maintenance labor costs and the fact that much of the auto usage in this country is short runs to the store, etc. where diesels don't fair well.
I'm especially surprised by that mpg number (32mpg). I'd never heard that before. My 10 year old 4 cylinder gas car started off with an avg. fuel burn of 29-31 mpg when new. Now it still gets 27-30mpg. That makes the hybrid very unappealing, especially when you tack on the added initial cost and the maintenance costs. Makes one wonder if the only real cure is less use of our vehicles, and that's not good news for manufacturers of boats or cars.

Diesels do great in city traffic, keep in mind when a diesel is idling in say a VW, it's using 1/3 of a gallon an hour in fuel, so traffic lights and stop and go it shines. There is enough infrastructure that you can find a station selling diesel in just about any city if not many. Europe pretty much, every car is diesel. Well, things have changed in the American lifestyle. 20 years ago it was unheard of to commute more than 5 miles to work each way. Now many people commute 30-50 miles each way to work in a car and think nothing of it........that's part of the problem.....

[ZIA]

Google "Rentech"; they make a synthetic diesel using the Fischer-Tropsch chemistry and have been perfecting this for years. Their diesel is much cleaner burning and more power per gallon than regular diesel. They also make other fuels.. I have followed them for many years.

[captjohn22]

I am in the sport fishing end of the industry , spending one half of the year in NJ.
Canyon fishing in the NY/NJ area means runs of 70 to 100 + miles one way to start fishing. While the top enders don't care about 150 to 200 GPH the middle class fisherman is cutting back on trips. So far the new technoloigy is no wheres cost effective. I think the near [ 20 yrs. ] future will need to go retro. That is narrower beams and single engines. Very cost effective and real world useable.

[K1W1]

Hi,

As a matter of interest- How much Fuel do you burn on one of these trips?

[airship]

brian eiland has so far come closest to exposing the problem IMHO:

I don't think the 'hybrid' technologies will take over as quickly as just slowing the vessels down to hull speeds will have a tremendous effect on fuel usage.

So far as I recall, displacement yachts (and commercial shipping) are subject to very basic formulae involving length of the waterline etc. giving theoretical hull-speeds. And why a 30m full-displacement yacht is probably happiest and most economical under calm sea conditions when travelling at or just under 10 knots. If the owner wishes to go 1.5 to 2 knots faster, that will usually double the fuel consumption. The same owner might have considered building a 40m yacht with small beam instead, equipped with similar engines.

Semi-planning or full-planning motor yachts are another question (and much more gourmande on any measures). You might expect that the modern sailing mega-yacht should offer some economies. But you'd probably be very disappointed. The masts together with automated sail-handling systems and heavy ballasts required for stability usually installed are huge consumers of power and the sail materials themselves are very expensive (requiring regular replacement) to the point that I doubt that on the basis of a direct comparison of a full-displacement motor yacht compared to a sailing yacht offering the same available liveable space aboard, that the sailing vessel would indeed be more expensive under most conditions of use. Until the day that they can produce photo-voltaic panels which become an integral part of the sails of mega-yachts, sailing yachts will probably be more expensive (whether or not in terms of numbers of crew / cost of maintenance etc.) to run in comparison.

Which is why whenever I see a modern mega sailboat anchored in a bay here, I secretly congratulate the owner for making the choice that "the eye-pleasing object" costs 50% more to own then a full displacement motoryacht 2/3rds the length, offering the same accomodation. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[captjohn22]

Originally Posted by K1W1

Hi,

As a matter of interest- How much Fuel do you burn on one of these trips?

I run two boats. One is 42' with 1600 total HP, cruising at 26 kts. and burns between 300 and 375 gal depending on the destination and sea conditions. The other is 38' with 750 total HP, cruising at 20 kts. and ranges from 210 to 275 gal. Overall adverages are 325 gal. and 240 gal. Per trip.

[carelm]

Originally Posted by captjohn22

I am in the sport fishing end of the industry , spending one half of the year in NJ.
Canyon fishing in the NY/NJ area means runs of 70 to 100 + miles one way to start fishing. While the top enders don't care about 150 to 200 GPH the middle class fisherman is cutting back on trips. So far the new technoloigy is no wheres cost effective. I think the near [ 20 yrs. ] future will need to go retro. That is narrower beams and single engines. Very cost effective and real world useable.

There is a company in Australia (I think) that is building narrow-beam ocean going yachts much like you have mentioned. I forget the company name, but they have several models in their fleet. They are also unpainted aluminium which is quite distinctive.

Update:

Here is a website to the company, Dashew Offshore


http://www.dashewoffshore.com/fpb_first.asp

[captjohn22]

Originally Posted by carelm

There is a company in Australia (I think) that is building narrow-beam ocean going yachts much like you have mentioned. I forget the company name, but they have several models in their fleet. They are also unpainted aluminium which is quite distinctive.

Update:

Here is a website to the company, Dashew Offshore


DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

Thanks. I did a quick partial read and it looks very interesting.
I have given some thought to getting a used sail boat or motorsailer around 35' and reworking it for ecconomical cruising and fishing
Now if only someone would make a 42'x10' sport fish that can cruise around 20 to 24 kts and get 2 MPG.