[travler]

i think you need to look hard i think the way it goes is HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE'S

TRAVLER

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by travler

i think you need to look hard i think the way it goes is HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE'S

TRAVLER

That's the way it is until you run into that pesky piece of paper (the Constitution) or people who feel they have nothing left to lose (no piece of paper stops them).

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Just argumentative. I don't believe in condemning people or our military until all the facts are in and judgements are rendered.

Hypocrite. Go back and read your comments on the destroyer collision, the speedboat/bridge collision, and the beginning of this thread.

The destroyer collision is a good one, I just got the results of a FOIA request this morning and the Navy has clammed up because they are getting sued. There are no charges against the small boat ... perhaps you might reread your comments and see how they square with your claim quoted above.

You constantly and consistenly blame the victim or someone you think might not hold a license as vaunted as your own and seem to never wait until "the facts are in" before posting your ill informed judgement on this site.

[NYCAP123]

Name calling? Is that the best you can come up with? And to support it, you cite that I believe fault most likely lies with the skipper of a 21' pleasure boat rather than the commander of a destroyer on maneuvers when a minor collision occurs, and support that with the fact that some ambulance chaser thinks money can be made by suing our government. Please! Or that I expect fault to be found on the part of a go-fast skipper who puts his boat 100 yards onto an island on a Saturday night in a 5 mph zone that I'm personally familiar with. That being a skipper whose blood alcohol level eventually proved him to be drunk at the time.
Yes, I will always try (although I'm not perfect as some seem to think they are) to give the benefit of the doubt to the professional mariner or to those serving our country. And there will be no apologies for that. So continue your vendetta against the CG and our military for not living up to your standards of perfection, and have fun with that. I'll refrain from name calling, although anybody who has witnessed your rants can fill in the blanks on their own with little problem.

[travler]

NY CAP

have you ever served in the armed forces of this country

travler

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by travler

NY CAP

have you ever served in the armed forces of this country

travler

Too personal and political a question. I will say only that I'm too old to get in today, and my debts are paid I will also say that I have the utmost respect for those who serve in the past, today and tomorrow regardless of the validity of the battle. That does not mean that all are worthy, but they get it as a unit until they are individually found not to deserve it.

[Marmot]

On 7 February, 2010 Marmot posted the following:

"I believe that the recommendations for charges are a public relations ploy to placate those who, like me, want to see those responsible hung out to dry. But, I believe deeper failures led to this tragedy. Those who are ultimately responsible will not be held to account and the severity of the initial findings will lead to a cry for leniency."

Headline in "The Log - California's Boating and Fishing News"
http://www.thelog.com/news/logNewsArticle.aspx?x=11904

Coast Guard Drops More Charges in Holiday Collision on SD Bay
Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:00:00 AM

"ALAMEDA (AP) — The Coast Guard has dropped the most serious charges against a petty officer who was in a patrol boat that collided with a pleasureboat during a holiday boat parade on San Diego Bay last year, killing an 8-year-old boy.


Brittany N. Rasmussen, whose court-martial is scheduled to begin Jan. 26, faces a maximum penalty of one-month confinement and a reduction of rank under the new charges.

In July, she was charged with negligent homicide, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty. The Coast Guard said Dec. 9 those charges were withdrawn and a new complaint was filed, accusing her only of dereliction of duty.

The Coast Guard did not explain the decision.
Dereliction of duty charges have already been dropped against another of the four petty officers aboard the Coast Guard vessel at the time of the crash. Two others, including the helmsman of the boat at the time of the crash, still face more serious charges."

[travler]

what a shock

[NYCAP123]

Negligent homicide and aggravated assault are generally reserved for intentional acts such as DUI or road rage and dereliction of duty does not describe this incident. I believe those charges were the result of the mistaken report that someone was using a cell phone. This was a case of people screwing up with tragic results. They're not getting off easy. Their careers are done; they're on a fast track to bankruptcy and worst of all they have to close their eyes at night. Not to mention the law suits. As for those higher up, although there is no way to verify, I suspect that a few career paths have changed. No winners here. Probably not even justice.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Negligent homicide and aggravated assault are generally reserved for intentional acts such as DUI or road rage and dereliction of duty does not describe this incident.

From one of the many legal sites online:

"Negligent homicide occurs when someone dies as the result of inaction of another person. ... Negligent homicide can also occur in situations when a person operates a motor vehicle in a way that can be considered reckless. Whatever the action or inaction, unlike murder, the resulting death of a victim or victims was not planned and did not involve malice. For this reason, negligent homicide is considered a lesser offense than murder."

"Result of inaction of another person." Meaning that any crewmember of that boat who did not stand up and tell the coxwain that the boat was being operated dangerously and without due regard to the existing conditions shares the responsibility for the death of that child.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Marmot

From one of the many legal sites online:

"Negligent homicide occurs when someone dies as the result of inaction of another person. ... Negligent homicide can also occur in situations when a person operates a motor vehicle in a way that can be considered reckless. Whatever the action or inaction, unlike murder, the resulting death of a victim or victims was not planned and did not involve malice. For this reason, negligent homicide is considered a lesser offense than murder."

"Result of inaction of another person." Meaning that any crewmember of that boat who did not stand up and tell the coxwain that the boat was being operated dangerously and without due regard to the existing conditions shares the responsibility for the death of that child.

If my wife reads this she'll feel obligated to punish me every time I cross the speed limit on the highway (like I don't give her enough cause already ). The judgements have been made and punishment has been, is, and will continue to be doled out. Not everyone will be satisfied. Certainly the family of the child can never be satisfied. Everything seems to be handled in open light. That's all anyone can hope for, and maybe that lessons be learned.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

The judgements have been made and punishment has been, is, and will continue to be doled out.

?? There has been no trial yet, no judgements have been made and no punishments have been "doled out."

And you can forget about civil recourse, those kids don't have any money to take and very little prospect of ever having any. They don't have much in the way of pockets, must less deep ones.

As far as their careers in the CG go, I doubt anyone will get the boot as that would put a spotlight on their leaders. It would prove that the crew was either freelancing and not under control, or lacked the training to be set loose with such a potentially dangerous machine. Either way, the brass will make sure that they keep the smell away as far and for as long as possible.

[NYCAP123]

By judgements I was not referring to final legal determination. Perhaps I should have said 'decisions' to be more clear. And as I said punishment "has been, is, and will continue to be". I sincerely doubt that any involved have been enjoying their lives, nor will they for a long time. I realize that you have a bone to pick with the CG, but it is their decisions, and those of the judges and courts that count. They will make their determinations based on the facts, the law and I'm certain with some degree of consultation with the family. I doubt our views will count much.

[Marmot]

"The judgements have been made and punishment has been, is, and will continue to be doled out."

Color me confused but words have meanings. You made very specific assertions about the status of the people involved in this tragedy. What I can't understand is why you make those throw away statements that you have to go back and pull out of the trash ... time after time after time ...

No decisions have been made on the fate of those on the boat, no punishments have been "doled out." For all its operational faults, the CG is not (to the best of my knowledge) so corrupt as to conduct secret trials or impose extrajudicial punishment no matter how badly they screw up.

I'm glad you recognize the fact that it is the judges who make the judgements and do the deciding and doling. So far the only thing that has been decided is the trial date, the rest of the issue seems be fairly nebulous.

My personal and professional opinion of how badly the CG trains and supervises its small boat force is irrelevant to how the CG handles this issue other than to confirm my predictions.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"The judgements have been made and punishment has been, is, and will continue to be doled out."

Color me confused but words have meanings. You made very specific assertions about the status of the people involved in this tragedy. What I can't understand is why you make those throw away statements that you have to go back and pull out of the trash ... time after time after time ...

No decisions have been made on the fate of those on the boat, no punishments have been "doled out." For all its operational faults, the CG is not (to the best of my knowledge) so corrupt as to conduct secret trials or impose extrajudicial punishment no matter how badly they screw up.

I'm glad you recognize the fact that it is the judges who make the judgements and do the deciding and doling. So far the only thing that has been decided is the trial date, the rest of the issue seems be fairly nebulous.

My personal and professional opinion of how badly the CG trains and supervises its small boat force is irrelevant to how the CG handles this issue other than to confirm my predictions.

You are confused, so very very confused.

You say no decisions have been made and no punishments have been doled out, as you bray about the decisions you have made about these people and those in the operational hierarchy above them. You bleat and wail about the gross miscarriage of training and responsibility that is obvious to you, as you sit in judgment, and you cry out for punishment before they have had their day in court... "Give them a fair trial, then hang them!" Isn't that how it goes? Predictions? No my friend, what you are broadcasting are prejudices not predictions.

You, most opinionated sir, are the epitome of what is known as The Court of Public Opinion. The very embodiment of what these misguided, untrained, ill-prepared, and over-equipped young fools - if your opinions are worth more than what we have paid for them - are to suffer in punishment their whole lives through. Having been "named and shamed" they and their actions (or inactions as the case may be) are now just a Google search away, no matter the outcome of the trial. With but a few keystrokes, this tragedy will haunt them their whole lives... perhaps beyond, as information has a way of outliving scoundrels. So whatever the decision of the judge, the press and the public have a way of bestowing immortal infamy upon people not for what they did, but for what they were accused of doing.

If they are the responsible parties, then may they be punished for their misdeeds. If they are but merely players upon their corner of the world stage, then may their directors be brought to justice.

The pursuit of justice in this tragic instance may indeed be a fool's errand as you say, but to assert that there has been no punishment yet is a statement made up almost of whole cloth.

Given the display of Marmot Vs. The Search Engine here in this thread, I suspect this is neither the first nor last time such a statement will be written and read on this board.

Good day.