[Marmot]

Originally Posted by Alaskanmutt

The case will proceed to a military process called an Article 32 investigation, similar to a grand jury in civilian courts, where a decision will be made whether to move forward to a court-martial.

I believe the charges are appropriate. But, I don't believe the crew should take all the blame. There are several individuals in the chain of command above them that should have also been charged.

The USCG small boat system is broken. This is only a symptom and unless those responsible for the concept of "command presence" are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates nothing will change.

[NYCAP123]

Cudos to the CG & the other agencies involved in the investigation. Seven months. Obviously nobody dragged their heals or tried to cover up. There may well be problems with training and supervision, but that wouldn't enter the criminal investigation. I suspect though that is the subject of internal investigations. I'm sad for the coasties involved as well as the civis. No winners.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I'm sad for the coasties involved as well as the civis. No winners.

In this kind of situation, this is the sad truth.

[RER]

Originally Posted by Marmot

I believe the charges are appropriate. But, I don't believe the crew should take all the blame. There are several individuals in the chain of command above them that should have also been charged.

The USCG small boat system is broken. This is only a symptom and unless those responsible for the concept of "command presence" are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates nothing will change.

I could not agree more. I think your comments, though they are brief, speak exactly to the point.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by RER

I could not agree more. I think your comments, though they are brief, speak exactly to the point.

Thank you. It just isn't that complicated.

If you own a pit bull and it chews someone's face off, the pit bull is put down and the owner is held responsible for its actions.

The CG trained their own pit bulls and instilled in them this bizarre concept of "command presence" as a means to exhibit to the world that they hold the power and authority to use force or any other means to accomplish their role de jour. What they do not seem to comprehend is the other side of that, which is “command responsibility."

I believe that the recommendations for charges are a public relations ploy to placate those who, like me, want to see those responsible hung out to dry. But, I believe deeper failures led to this tragedy. Those who are ultimately responsible will not be held to account and the severity of the initial findings will lead to a cry for leniency. That crew, while its actions were criminal, were no different than any other animal trained to respond without question or hesitation to a given stimulus.

The crewmen on the boat that killed that child are individually responsible for their actions, they performed as they did despite the conditions. While I hesitate to say that their lack of training and supervision is an extenuating circumstance and that reduces their responsibility, they performed the way their superiors trained them and expected them to perform.

Sitting in an office on Harbor Drive at this moment is a Coast Guard Yama****a. I would like to see the CG commandant use the same arguments for his conviction.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Thank you. It just isn't that complicated.

If you own a pit bull and it chews someone's face off, the pit bull is put down and the owner is held responsible for its actions.

The CG trained their own pit bulls and instilled in them this bizarre concept of "command presence" as a means to exhibit to the world that they hold the power and authority to use force or any other means to accomplish their role de jour.

Totally aside from this tragedy, what seems to be forgotten is that the CG is a part of our military presence. I'd rather have a pit bull (hopefully well trained) protecting our country than a poodle or Pomeranian.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I'd rather have a pit bull (hopefully well trained) protecting our country than a poodle or Pomeranian.

We don't need pit bulls to protect San Diego against children watching boats decorated with Christmas lights.

Why is it so difficult to understand the the type of response required in Umm Qasr is inappropriate in San Diego or Fort Lauderdale. We don't send the SWAT team to apprehend parking violators and we don't call in the Secret Service when someone overdraws their checking account. The CG has one form of response, usually the wrong one at the wrong time and place. This has consistenly resulted in collisions with other boats, the deaths of young coasties, and now the death of an innocent child.

The heroic actions of Bering Sea helicopter crews or the sacrifice of a CG coxwain on Guadalcanal does not justify the Rambo culture that permeates the CG small boat service in American ports today.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Sitting in an office on Harbor Drive at this moment is a Coast Guard Yama****a.

For Heaven's sake ... this nanny software is getting ridiculous.

For the historically challenged, which is most Americans unfortunately, we executed a Japanese general because we held him reponsible for the actions of his troops despite his being physically removed and out of communication with them and was incapable of exercising any form or control or command.

This legal concept under which he was convicted has become known as "command responsibility" or the Yama*hita standard.

[RER]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I'd rather have a pit bull (hopefully well trained) protecting our country than a poodle or Pomeranian.

And so would I. But the key word as it relates to this specific incident is "protecting" which is not what the CG was doing. They were training. They are always training in San Diego bay. They've been training in the bay for the 40 years that I've been operating boats there. San Diego boaters are subjected to constant CG interception and boardings. Granted they have to train someplace in order to become proficient. But I think the Holiday of Lights parade, which attracts a relatively small amount of boater participation, would be just fine with the Harbor Police on the job.

I fail to see how some overloaded patrol boats of teenagers fresh off the farm in Iowa make this event, or the bay at any time, more safe.

[NYCAP123]

Is it not common knowledge that San Diego is one of the most prime target areas on the west coast. There is a very large military, naval and intelligence presence there (targets all) not to mention its proximity to the Mexican border where there are major drug wars going on, and then there is the human smuggling operations. We are a nation at war, and San Diego is our west coast front line. That may be inconvenient and contrary to the 'California' lifestyle, but that is the reality of today. All those boardings and training exercises make it less likely that one of those boats is not so benign. During a boarding I expect to see no smiles and a hand near the gun until they are sure I'm OK. That's life today.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

That's life today.

I'm sure some Jewish guy said that in 1938.

Have you ever heard the tale of how to boil a frog? Or the one about those who would give their freedom away for the perception of security will have neither?

I would rather take my chances with terrorists than be assured of having to deal with untrained, incompetent, armed teenagers operating without restraint or limit under the banner of defending the homeland from myself.

[RER]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Is it not common knowledge that San Diego is one of the most prime target areas on the west coast. There is a very large military, naval and intelligence presence there (targets all) not to mention its proximity to the Mexican border where there are major drug wars going on, and then there is the human smuggling operations. We are a nation at war, and San Diego is our west coast front line. That may be inconvenient and contrary to the 'California' lifestyle, but that is the reality of today. All those boardings and training exercises make it less likely that one of those boats is not so benign. During a boarding I expect to see no smiles and a hand near the gun until they are sure I'm OK. That's life today.

The Navy does a pretty good job of watching out for themselves. Not sure they need or want any help. Try driving too close to the NBPL Submarine Base at Ballast Point and you'll see what I mean. If "We are a nation at war..." is a reference to the Mexican drug violence, illegal immigration, and or September 11th, as I said, the CG interception and boarding has been going on for decades. During boarding you can expect to see plenty of smiles. You can also expect teenagers with combat boots and M-16's crawling all over your vessel with the sensibilities of a bull in a china shop. Don't know what the "California" lifestyle is. I'm just trying to get a boat from point A to point B.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Marmot

I'm sure some Jewish guy said that in 1938.

Have you ever heard the tale of how to boil a frog? Or the one about those who would give their freedom away for the perception of security will have neither?

I would rather take my chances with terrorists than be assured of having to deal with untrained, incompetent, armed teenagers operating without restraint or limit under the banner of defending the homeland from myself.

How to boil a frog? Those "teenagers" are the same ones dying all over the world. They've been doing it for as long as I've been alive. They are not untrained nor incompetent. Could training and supervision be better? Of course. It always could be. Talk to your rep to get more funds allocated to the CG. Good luck with that. And please don't equate our men & women in uniform to Hitler's Nazis. That's offensive. As for your willingness to 'take my chances with terrorists', I think there are a few thousand people who were in Times Square a very short while ago, when a loaded SUV was left there, who might be more reluctant to embrace that stance.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

That's offensive.

Just as offensive as the CG explanation of their small boat operations.

As for your willingness to 'take my chances with terrorists', I think there are a few thousand people who were in Times Square a very short while ago, when a loaded SUV was left there, who might be more reluctant to embrace that stance.

Since you are speaking for those thousands ... what would they say about not being allowed to walk freely into Times Square without being detained and searched by gun wielding jackbooted teenagers who look on them all as suspects? The fact that for the time being at least we can walk unimpeded in Times Square is a clear example of the fact than not everyone shares your willingness to give up their freedom of passage for some distorted sense of security.

Without the continued right to go about our own business without government interference, there is no freedom for those uber-patriots to defend.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Just as offensive as the CG explanation of their small boat operations.




Since you are speaking for those thousands ... what would they say about not being allowed to walk freely into Times Square without being detained and searched by gun wielding jackbooted teenagers who look on them all as suspects? The fact that for the time being at least we can walk unimpeded in Times Square is a clear example of the fact than not everyone shares your willingness to give up their freedom of passage for some distorted sense of security.

Without the continued right to go about our own business without government interference, there is no freedom for those uber-patriots to defend.

Haven't been in NYC for a while I guess. People are stopped on the streets and in the subways to have their bags checked every day and I haven't heard any complaints. It's done with courtesy and professionalism "by gun wielding jackbooted teenagers" although most of us refer to them as our sons and daughters.