[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"Coverage under the Workers Compensation Act for all employees in the maritime industry who perform their function in navigable U.S. Waters, including dry docks, wharves, piers, and other places for docking. Excluded are the master and crew of the ship, and any individual involved in loading, unloading, or repairing of a ship whose weight is less than 18 tons. "

There is a reference to a net tonnage of 18 to define a small vessel but I suggest you might have problems determining the net tonnage of most yachts.

I don't know who wrote that but it is another example of how this crap gets out of hand. Look up the Act and read it. We could go on forever swapping links but look at this one:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...&sel=TOC_3718&

What is going on is the yards are trying to push all risk off to the customers. Have you read one of the yard contracts recently? They can burn your boat down through negligence or incompetence and it ain't their problem. Workmans comp is a state program, it does not cover the majority of workers you see around a shipyard and the yards want to make sure they don't have to defend a claim. As soon as boats are moved overseas or to other yards this will stop.

In the meantime, stop blaming the only law that might save your butt and your job one day. And if you work for a contractor doing business in different boatyards you had better look into how you are going to pay for a lifetime of medical care if you get seriously injured. You might be surprised.

The Net tonnage along with the gross tonnage is listed on every USCG documentation paper on every yacht that I've seen. Net tonnage is easily found when you haul the boat, most travel lifts have a scale on them that shows the weight.

I know the yards have an exclusion in their contract for just about everything that could happen. They usually don't hold up in court, if the yard is truelly liable.

But, the whole yard industry has had the additude that they can do things like that and exclude certain sub-contracters when business was so good. Now that things have slowed down, yards might be a little more agree-able.

Marmot- your Thomas article mentions that workers under 65' are exempt. I have always heard from the yards that "any subcontractor has to have longshoremans insurance" and they've gone on to explain to me that even if the boat they are working on is under 65' there are boats in the yard that are over 65' and they still need it. I am exempt from needing it on boats that I work on in a yard usually because I am the Captain that brings them there in the first place. Billfish Marina was the first yard to start doing it, solely to keep out competition since they own Hi-seas electronics, P+R canvas and Pipewelder's there as well as mechanical places like Barry Brown Marine..........Here is from your link.

In 1984, Congress exempted from the Longshore Act certain employees in the recreational boating industry, specifically those employees who built, repaired or dismantled recreational vehicles under 65 feet in length. In doing so, Congress reasoned that: (a) employment in the recreational marine industry was not comparable to employment in the commercial marine industry, and thus such employees were not appropriately included within LHWCA; and (b) injuries suffered by employees during the course of employment in the recreational marine industry would be covered under state workers' compensation laws.

[Marmot]

"The Net tonnage along with the gross tonnage is listed on every USCG documentation paper on every yacht that I've seen."

Uh, what is the title of this thread?


"Net tonnage is easily found when you haul the boat, most travel lifts have a scale on them that shows the weight."

Are you really a captain or is the "Capt" in your screen name just for grins? If it isn't what kind of captain? Bell captain? Army captain? Airline captain? Got a 6-pack?

A seaman, especially one who calls himself a "captain" knows that net tonnage is not the weight of the boat ... you didn't really think that the documented tonnage is the weight of the boat did you? Do you? "Say it isn't so, Joe."

This is really scary and certainly reinforces some of my earlier posts on the competence and training of license holders in the yacht business.

A yard can impose any requirement it wants. Telling people it is forced to because of some law is another thing entirely and the ignorance surrounding the Jones Act and the Passenger Vessel Services Act, and now the Longshoreman act only benefits a group of businesses that have nothing to do with yachts and boatyards.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"The Net tonnage along with the gross tonnage is listed on every USCG documentation paper on every yacht that I've seen."

Uh, what is the title of this thread?


"Net tonnage is easily found when you haul the boat, most travel lifts have a scale on them that shows the weight."

Are you really a captain or is the "Capt" in your screen name just for grins? If it isn't what kind of captain? Bell captain? Army captain? Airline captain? Got a 6-pack?

A seaman, especially one who calls himself a "captain" knows that net tonnage is not the weight of the boat ... you didn't really think that the documented tonnage is the weight of the boat did you? Do you? "Say it isn't so, Joe."

This is really scary and certainly reinforces some of my earlier posts on the competence and training of license holders in the yacht business.

A yard can impose any requirement it wants. Telling people it is forced to because of some law is another thing entirely and the ignorance surrounding the Jones Act and the Passenger Vessel Services Act, and now the Longshoreman act only benefits a group of businesses that have nothing to do with yachts and boatyards.

Gross tonnage- is determined by a volume formula which dates back a century and has to do with the volume of wine it can carry or some nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with the actual weight of the boat.

Net Tonnage is also a calculation of a ships cargo holds and capacity of weigh it can carry or size of it's molded cargo holds.

Honestly I was thinking dry tonnage when I mentioned weighing it with a travel lift.

[Ken Bracewell]

Originally Posted by Marmot

This is really scary and certainly reinforces some of my earlier posts on the competence and training of license holders in the yacht business.

While I happen to agree with you that this should be known from experience, I'm not really sure where net tonnage has any relevence to to the competence and training of any captain in the yacht business. Licensing Regulation is based on Gross Tonnage and I can only recall very few instances when I've ever needed to reference net tonnage (usually on customs forms in foreign ports).
MARMOT- we all get that you're very smart and well-versed in regulations, but I wouldn't allow CaptJs statement to define his capabilities as a yacht captain.

[K1W1]

Hi,

This should answer most Tonnage related questions that seem to have somehow appeared in a thread concerned with Foreign Flag Vessels in the US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage

[NYCAP123]

Well that clears that up, and I can't understand how any "real" captain can't recite the verbatim with total understanding and be able to do the computations in his head.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Well that clears that up, and I can't understand how any "real" captain can't recite the verbatim with total understanding and be able to do the computations in his head.

Yes, I agree totally. Considering a total understanding of Net Registered Tonnage is so important to private yachts. The stevadores were so angry when I pulled into Port Everglades to load up the 75' Hatteras MY with 50 tons of wheat destined for India and the vessel would only hold 49. hehehe..... I did actually score 100% on the deck cargo section of my license when I sat for it many years ago. But, who remembers stuff that you never use again without studying it.

In all reality, I have never been asked for the net registered tonnage of a vessel in all my years for anything on a yacht. The USCG goes by gross tons when it comes to licensing and also with safety regulations and safety equipment, as do all of the insurance companies.

As a Yacht Captain- the most important aspects are safety, navigation, decision making, yacht handling, people skills, accounting skills, and being able to properly maintain all of the systems. Net registered tonnage, doesn't factor into any of this.

I'm sorry if I've spent 200 days a year at sea for the last 7 years and haven't had time to sit on the recliner at home and catch up on some of this information.

Marmot- I also agree that you're very well versed and knowledgable in many things. You come across as being very book smart. However, I think I'd find it amusing to see your yacht handling abilities.

[NYCAP123]

I'm often amazed by my ignorance until I speak with another captain whom I find knows less. What we do seem to know is where to find the answers we need when we need them. Some of the best boat-handlers I know wouldn't stand a prayer of passing their captain's exam today, but I'd rather be out with them in a storm than a guy who could recite the CFR chapter and verse.

[K1W1]

[quote=NYCAP123 I can't understand how any "real" captain can't recite the verbatim with total understanding and be able to do the computations in his head.[/QUOTE]

Hi,

NYCAP- I have to agree with you on this one.

[Marmot]

I wasn't the one who brought the definition of tonnage into the thread.

I don't believe it is too much to expect a licensed officer to understand the meaning of the terms which describe the limitations of his license.

A seaman who is charged with responsibility for the operation of a vessel and its crew and passengers should at least understand the fundamental concepts relating to how his vessel is rated and registered and the terms and conditions under which he may use his license. This is not some arcane bit of "book learning" it is an example of the knowledge a professional should demonstrate.

No one asked anyone to recite any regulation or compute anything. When someone brings regulations into the discussion don't have a hissy fit when the terms are defined. This particular example wasn't a simple misconception either, it was gross ignorance of a basic area of knowledge in which a captain is required by law to be conversant, and is as fundamental to seamanship as the COLREGS. Even the MCA requires a working knowledge of laws and procedures because they are as much a part of operating a vessel as steering it.

Ridicule the idea if you like, but if someone is going to use the title of captain, I think he should have the professional knowledge that goes along with the license, title, and responsibilities. The industry is full of outstanding boat handlers who lack the knowledge and training to operate a commercial vessel within the regulatory environment that exists today and those individuals are quite simply a threat to owners and the industry.

Many of the rules that are strangling the industry today exist because too many otherwise excellent boat handlers didn't understand the vocabulary or the relevance of some regulation and caused a physical or financial disaster.

Capt J, you had 165 days a year for the past 7 to learn the skills and knowledge that define a professional captain. Questioning or attempting to denigrate my knowledge and professional skills doesn't enhance yours.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Marmot

I wasn't the one who brought the definition of tonnage into the thread.

I don't believe it is too much to expect a licensed officer to understand the meaning of the terms which describe the limitations of his license.

A seaman who is charged with responsibility for the operation of a vessel and its crew and passengers should at least understand the fundamental concepts relating to how his vessel is rated and registered and the terms and conditions under which he may use his license. This is not some arcane bit of "book learning" it is an example of the knowledge a professional should demonstrate.

No one asked anyone to recite any regulation or compute anything. When someone brings regulations into the discussion don't have a hissy fit when the terms are defined. This particular example wasn't a simple misconception either, it was gross ignorance of a basic area of knowledge in which a captain is required by law to be conversant, and is as fundamental to seamanship as the COLREGS. Even the MCA requires a working knowledge of laws and procedures because they are as much a part of operating a vessel as steering it.

Ridicule the idea if you like, but if someone is going to use the title of captain, I think he should have the professional knowledge that goes along with the license, title, and responsibilities. The industry is full of outstanding boat handlers who lack the knowledge and training to operate a commercial vessel within the regulatory environment that exists today and those individuals are quite simply a threat to owners and the industry.

Many of the rules that are strangling the industry today exist because too many otherwise excellent boat handlers didn't understand the vocabulary or the relevance of some regulation and caused a physical or financial disaster.

Capt J, you had 165 days a year for the past 7 to learn the skills and knowledge that define a professional captain. Questioning or attempting to denigrate my knowledge and professional skills doesn't enhance yours.

My license and any other USCG merchant mariners license uses Gross Tons, not Net Registered Tons. All of the US Coast Guard rules and cfr's and regs use Gross Tons. I am quite aware of Gross Tons and how it effects my license and operation as well as anything else such as safety requirements. Commercial vessels that are US flagged also go by Gross Tons and are regulated by Gross Tons and that is the United States regulatory system.

Net Registered Tons, is not used by the USCG. It may be used for an MCA license or in other countries. It may also apply with an 800' freightor that is getting dockage in a US port for port fees. But it does not apply to US flagged yachts. If you are not carrying cargo (ie. a freightor), and running a US flagged yacht, net registered tons means absolutely nothing to you and has no bearing on your operation of said vessel.

A seaman who is charged with responsibility for the operation of a vessel and its crew and passengers should at least understand the fundamental concepts relating to how his vessel is rated and registered and the terms and conditions under which he may use his license. I am familiar with gross registered tons and my license is governed by Gross registered tons.

[K1W1]

Hi,

CAPT J- What happened to the 250 Days a year you claimed to be spending at sea for the last 7 years in a previous post?

In case you forgot- http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/69293-post83.html

oh and before you bang your drum too much about what rules your license is governed ( restricted)by you might want to read this extract from the link I posted earlier.

Gross register tonnage was replaced by gross tonnage in 1994 under the Tonnage Measurement convention of 1969, but is still a widely used term in the industry.[1][2]

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by K1W1

Hi,

CAPT J- What happened to the 250 Days a year you claimed to be spending at sea for the last 7 years in a previous post?

In case you forgot- http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/69293-post83.html

oh and before you bang your drum too much about what rules your license is governed ( restricted)by you might want to read this extract from the link I posted earlier.

Gross register tonnage was replaced by gross tonnage in 1994 under the Tonnage Measurement convention of 1969, but is still a widely used term in the industry.[1][2]

It all depends on how you define my seatime, it is what it is. If you go by the USCG definition. If I've spent 50 days on inland waters (lake michigan, Lake Erie, Lake Superior), it is considered inland waters. And sea is considered ocean such as the Atlantic. So 200 days at sea, 50 days inland waters, and 250 days underway. If you're just being broad and saying 250 days at sea........maybe I should have said 250 days underway then it applies. People on here seem to want to be way too specific and split hairs a lot of times. But it really could be mind boggling, I do log each day in a desk calander, BUT, suppose it's rough and you spend 5hrs in the ocean and 5hrs inland (ICW) then you have to decide where that day really falls under (because the USCG goes by calander days, meaning you can't add 3 different 2hr trips together on different days and call it 1 day) which would be sea. But suppose the hours are different 4 ocean, 6 inland etc. etc. etc.

My current License was issued 2004 by the USCG and it says right on the front of it, "Master of steam or motor vessels of not more then XXX Gross Registered Tons (Domestic Tonnage) upon near coastal waters.

I am up for renewal in a couple of months and I will let you know what it states on my next license.

[Marmot]

Capt J, you seem to be missing the point entirely. As do all threads, this one morphed into something about the applicability of the Longshore Act to vessels in boatyards that service yachts. Once of the criteria referred to net tonnage.

As the master of the vessel who will sign contracts with the yard and subcontractors on behalf of the owner, and who also has a legal responsibility for the welfare of the crew and adherence to all relevant laws and conditions, it is not too much to expect the master to have a working knowledge of the terms and applicability of those regulations governing the operations for which he is responsible.

I don't believe anyone said your license mentioned net tonnage. I did, in no uncertain terms say that if you really do hold a license, part of the responsibility to exercise the authority of that license is to know what the laws are and what the terms and vocabulary of the laws mean. Since you didn't know the difference between the weight and the tonnage of a vessel your knowledge of seamanship and the regulations under which you operate and claim to hold a license were very rightly brought into question. You can make all the cute little jokes you want to try and divert the message but it still remains that as a captain you should at least be able to define the terms printed on the face of your license. You might be the best guy in the world at docking a little fishing boat at the end of a day trip but the authority of your license is not based on what kind of bait to use or how well you back into a slip.

So, feel free to tell us fishing stories and how to dock your boat but just make sure you know what you are talking about before you start whinging about the Jones Act and Longshoremans insurance or dispense advice on how to bring a foreign flagged or built vessel into this country for business or pleasure.

[jackpotnav]

Quick! Reef the Spanker and Spank the Reefer! Open the Seacocks and Full Speed Ahead!