[Capt. Bill11]

Originally Posted by Pascal

A customer of mine is looking at a floreign flagged boat in the 1M price range. My gut reaction was that in the long run, creating and maintaining a foreign corp., dealing with ICE and facing increased rules like pilots and advance notices, is probably going to cost more than the sales tax.


Now what about importing a foreign flagged, foreign built vessel and documenting it? how hard is it? (private use most likely, althought the above link on the Jones act is useful in case some chartering is considered)

Well the FL state tax will be at least 6% or $60,000 on a $1,000,000 boat. And setting up an offshore corp. should cost 1/10 or less then that. $54,000 buys a lot of fuel.

Now you could register the boat commercialy and not have to pay sales tax.

Changing the doc. from foreign to US is no big deal. You have to have the boat measured and then they make CAD drawings of it to submit to the USCG. There is a company here in Lauderdale that does it. I had their card. If you're interested I'm sure I can find it.

As to needing pilots, what would the tonnage of the vessel be?

[Marmot]

"I thought the Jones Act required 75% or more of the total crew to be US citizens?"


The 25 percent limit on aliens does not apply to a yacht. (46 CFR 81 8103)

If the boat is documented and used in commercial service or is a fishing vessel then all the rules apply. But, like all the rules there are exemptions like the one I mentioned a few posts back regarding the use of foreign seamen in some cases between foreign ports .. but no, this is not a practical way around the law, it is there for highly unusual circumstances.

[Marmot]

"...they make CAD drawings of it to submit to the USCG ..."

Not a bad scam, must be profitable for them. Under the Simplified measurement system, if the boat is less than 79 feet long the owner can submit the overall dimensions to the CG and that is it. If the boat is over 79 feet and used in international voyages it will probably have to be admeasured by a class surveyor to the Convention system, a simple and relatively inexpensive process. There is probably already an acceptable international tonnage certificate available for the boat anyway unless it is a one-off homebuilt affair.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"I thought the Jones Act required 75% or more of the total crew to be US citizens?"


The 25 percent limit on aliens does not apply to a yacht. (46 CFR 81 8103)

If the boat is documented and used in commercial service or is a fishing vessel then all the rules apply. But, like all the rules there are exemptions like the one I mentioned a few posts back regarding the use of foreign seamen in some cases between foreign ports .. but no, this is not a practical way around the law, it is there for highly unusual circumstances.

I've HEARD that the US coast Guard was going to change the Jones act where it applies to vessels over 100something feet (like 120 ft or something) instead of over 65 feet, but I don't think anything has been done with that yet. The Jones act has become a pain in the butt here in South Florida because yachts over 65 feet fall under it and any subcontracter needs longshoremans insurance to work on the vessel (yards are enforcing that subcontractors have it, when they never used to care), and it is very expensive insurance. I've heard around $3,000 per month and a lot of subcontractors can't afford to have it.

[NYCAP123]

I've HEARD that the US coast Guard was going to change the Jones act

I believe that may be a little outside their authority.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I believe that may be a little outside their authority.

Isn't the Us Coast Guard the governing body that enacts and modifies maritime law?

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Capt J

Isn't the Us Coast Guard the governing body that enacts and modifies maritime law?

Their job is enforcement and regulation, etc. You need to talk to the legislative branches (Congress).

[Pascal]

"The Jones act has become a pain in the butt here in South Florida because yachts over 65 feet fall under it and any subcontracter needs longshoremans insurance to work on the vessel (yards are enforcing that subcontractors have it, when they never used to care), and it is very expensive insurance."

first time i hear that one... i've had a few contractor work on the boat and show proof of insurance to the yard or marina, and afaik there were no special requirements at 70'

[NYCAP123]

I never heard of "longshoremans insurance", but around here the yards require $1M liability and worker's comp. That's simply CYA.

[JWY]

As an aside to the aside, don't forget that boats built in Canada and US flagged don't have to pay duty due to NAFTA.

Judy

[Marmot]

"The Jones act has become a pain in the butt here in South Florida because yachts over 65 feet fall under it and any subcontracter needs longshoremans insurance to work on the vessel ..."

What does 65 feet have to do with it?

C'mon guys, look this stuff up. The longshoremans insurance has nothing to do with the Jones Act. There is an act, the Longshore and Harbor Workers Compensation Act which covers workers who are not crew, and not seamen as defined under the Jones Act. Very broadly speaking, if you are not part of the crew you are not covered by the Jones Act.

Workers who may be contractors or employees of a marine related business doing work on vessels or alongside and who may not be covered by workmens compensation can make claims under that act. It is a complicated business, created by and for lawyers in the name of providing protection for workers. It is so complicated that you need an attorney to determine if the claim is a longshore claim or workers comp.

If a seaman makes a claim under the LHWCA, he can not make a claim under the provisions of the Jones Act.

The Jones Act is a cabotage act, just like many, if not most other nations have cabotage laws so does the US. Why everyone seems to think it is an affront to their rights or a threat to their livelihood I will never understand. I sincerely doubt if there is a single member of this forum who is effected negatively by the Jones Act.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Pascal

"The Jones act has become a pain in the butt here in South Florida because yachts over 65 feet fall under it and any subcontracter needs longshoremans insurance to work on the vessel (yards are enforcing that subcontractors have it, when they never used to care), and it is very expensive insurance."

first time i hear that one... i've had a few contractor work on the boat and show proof of insurance to the yard or marina, and afaik there were no special requirements at 70'

According to all of these yards in Fort Lauderdale, any non crew that works on a yacht over 65' needs longshoremen's insurance. These yards that I have run into that enforces it are Merritt's, Billfish Marina, Cable Marine, Lauderdale Marine Center, Rolly Marine Center, and others. They mainly use it as an excuse to keep some subcontractors out.........

Here is the definition of it that I have found on the internet and it's pretty specific
http://www.answers.com/topic/longsho...-act-liability

Coverage under the Workers Compensation Act for all employees in the maritime industry who perform their function in navigable U.S. Waters, including dry docks, wharves, piers, and other places for docking. Excluded are the master and crew of the ship, and any individual involved in loading, unloading, or repairing of a ship whose weight is less than 18 tons.

Actually longshoremans fills a gap between the Jones act and state workers compensation.

[Capt. Bill11]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"I thought the Jones Act required 75% or more of the total crew to be US citizens?"


The 25 percent limit on aliens does not apply to a yacht. (46 CFR 81 8103)

If the boat is documented and used in commercial service or is a fishing vessel then all the rules apply. But, like all the rules there are exemptions like the one I mentioned a few posts back regarding the use of foreign seamen in some cases between foreign ports .. but no, this is not a practical way around the law, it is there for highly unusual circumstances.

I guess I should have been clear. I was referring to a a vessel that was documented and/or registered commercially.

[Marmot]

"Coverage under the Workers Compensation Act for all employees in the maritime industry who perform their function in navigable U.S. Waters, including dry docks, wharves, piers, and other places for docking. Excluded are the master and crew of the ship, and any individual involved in loading, unloading, or repairing of a ship whose weight is less than 18 tons. "

There is a reference to a net tonnage of 18 to define a small vessel but I suggest you might have problems determining the net tonnage of most yachts.

I don't know who wrote that but it is another example of how this crap gets out of hand. Look up the Act and read it. We could go on forever swapping links but look at this one:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...&sel=TOC_3718&

What is going on is the yards are trying to push all risk off to the customers. Have you read one of the yard contracts recently? They can burn your boat down through negligence or incompetence and it ain't their problem. Workmans comp is a state program, it does not cover the majority of workers you see around a shipyard and the yards want to make sure they don't have to defend a claim. As soon as boats are moved overseas or to other yards this will stop.

In the meantime, stop blaming the only law that might save your butt and your job one day. And if you work for a contractor doing business in different boatyards you had better look into how you are going to pay for a lifetime of medical care if you get seriously injured. You might be surprised.

[Capt. Bill11]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"...they make CAD drawings of it to submit to the USCG ..."

Not a bad scam, must be profitable for them. Under the Simplified measurement system, if the boat is less than 79 feet long the owner can submit the overall dimensions to the CG and that is it. If the boat is over 79 feet and used in international voyages it will probably have to be admeasured by a class surveyor to the Convention system, a simple and relatively inexpensive process. There is probably already an acceptable international tonnage certificate available for the boat anyway unless it is a one-off homebuilt affair.

It was over 79 feet and measured by a class surveyor. It was my understanding that since the boat had been lengthened they could not use the original tonnage certificate.