[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Seafarer

Ford is still living down its Pinto gas tanks in the mind of the consumer, and all to save $20 Million back then. A poorly handled response to the possibility of safety defects, or worse a lack of response to mounting circumstantial evidence, will be far more dam*ing and damaging to Ferretti/Bertram in the mind of the consumer and the current owners. Taking the appearance of indifference as an approach to "handling" the issue is doubly dam*ing in an age of rapid and free flow of information (and speculation). This is not a bash against Bertram, as it is a truthful statement for all manufacturers in all industries today.

Crying about it on the internet is not going to stop the speculation, nor the subsequent drop in value of this era of boat from this builder due to decreased demand. Only when Bertram steps up with honest answers and honest response will the questions be answered whether owners or prospective owners have anything to fear. Crying about it on the internet makes it look like you're trying to bail yourself out of a bad mistake.

I must have missed Bertram's "crying". IMHO it looks like they've stated their opinion on how this accident happened and handled any structural problems on a case by case basis. It wouldn't serve them well to get into a p...ing match with anonymous people bashing them with speculation. Have any other builders had any structural problems? From the sounds of this thread one would assume not.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I must have missed Bertram's "crying". IMHO it looks like they've stated their opinion on how this accident happened and handled any structural problems on a case by case basis. It wouldn't serve them well to get into a p...ing match with anonymous people bashing them with speculation. Have any other builders had any structural problems? From the sounds of this thread one would assume not.

Who said Bertram was crying? I noted their deafening silence. Trisdee80 is the one crying on the internet.

Also, who said Bertram should get involved in a peeing contest with anyone? Being a public relations professional, my opinion is that their flagrant mishandling of (now known to be multiple) boat issues that have become public knowledge is a gross error on their part.

As an automotive example, Toyota has an outstanding reputation among consumers because they have an outstanding PR machine. They have had a tremendous number of safety-related recalls in the last few years, but their reputation persists because when there is a whiff of product claims, they immediately reach out to owners and offer to check their vehicles. When they identified rusting frame issues with a supplier, they footed the bill to buy back trucks or replace defective frames. The domestics have a reputation for ignoring and overlooking product failures, and that reputation translates to the consumer level through product avoidance (and corporate bankruptcy).

If Bertram was able to put out a press release acknowledging that they are looking into possible issues and doing their best to ensure that it is not, in fact, a product issue then they could quell a significant amount of the speculation. If they found that there may, in fact, be some process problem which can be / will be / is being addressed then making that information public can assuage the concerns of owners and prospective owners as well as captains. Without explicitly admitting product liability due to factors related to the nature of how boats are used, they could easily put out some CYA releases that don't allow as much room for bashing to occur. They could also put out a release stating that they have not, to date, identified anything in their process or product that would indicate being contributory to catastrophic failures like have been seen on more than one of their recent products.

But putting out fantasy-based speculative releases suggesting that a 3" diameter pipe on a 250# buoy ripped the sides, top, and rear of a 63' boat in relatively calm seas does nothing other than invite more speculation.

They've essentially stated that they are going out of their way to refuse to address issues even when brought to their attention, and going the extra mile to disclaim any need for them to do any self-examination. The lawyers might have warned them to do this, but the lawyers are going to warn them right out of business... not the people on a messageboard who want to know if the boat they're trusting their life on is worthy of that trust.

Sea Ray learned this lesson the hard way, too. It's certain that other builders ahve also had structural issues, and it's certain that other builders have lost sales or even gone out of business for similar reasons. But the companies that react the most forthrightly and earnestly in making sure their products live up to the claims are the ones who end up with great reputations and sales to match over the long haul.

[trisdee80]

I am sure that ALL fiberglass production builders have faced similar problems at some point in their history. From my personal experience I have heard and seen boats of all types and brands, European and American face some sort of structural or material failure. What remains in history however is the way the shipyard deals with the issue and addresses it with the owner.

It seems to me that they were unlucky to not have a good PR department at the time this found them.

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I must have missed Bertram's "crying". IMHO it looks like they've stated their opinion on how this accident happened and handled any structural problems on a case by case basis. It wouldn't serve them well to get into a p...ing match with anonymous people bashing them with speculation. Have any other builders had any structural problems? From the sounds of this thread one would assume not.

[CaptEvan]

Every production boat builder, likely any builder for that matter, has had an incident or two that they would like to forget and erase from the public mind. What that builder does with the facts they discover, or others discover for them, will either solidify, maybe even grow their market strength, or spin a dark vortex of self destruction.

We all apparently know what we see in the images, and seem to fully understand the consequences of denial. But in these horrific times for the entire boating industry, we can simply hope the right thing is done, and a founding member icon of the boating world is restored.

In all fairness, references to '08 hull #'s and retro have nothing to do with Ferretti, as that purchase was not consumated until the late fall of '08, well after the model year change. I do not know them other than their line of product, but it would only seem fair to give them a breath of judicial air if indeed the hulls we are discussing were before they took control.

And Shazam, I am, and others are, interested in who you are, and what you do ... a custom builder? Why not acknowledge yourself here, especially if you are willing to throw your composite knowledge weight around. Seems not stepping up front soon might jade your opinions to all of us.

[NYCAP123]

Crying about it on the internet is not going to stop the speculation, nor the subsequent drop in value of this era of boat from this builder due to decreased demand

.
And how many times have we seen boat manufacturers put out press releases saying their boats a structurally unsound? I must have missed them. Auto manufacturers did it only because of Ralph Nader and because it's hard to ignore, or deal with on a case by case basis, problems that affect thousands of every-day people. The problem talked about here affects less than a handful of rich guys (actually only one that's been documented so far). However, the bashing and unsubstantiated rumoring that has gone on here will cost investors, plant workers and anybody trying to sell a used Bertram. Doesn't quite seem fair, but I guess some just find it fun tarnishing reputations or maybe some are just trying to drive more American marine manufacturing businesses out. Like I've said before, let's put this in a seperate thread and go after all manufacturers with pictures and facts.

[ArcanisX]

Sometimes this discussion seems so convoluted I'm starting to loose track of it. If I'm still having some of it right, the question is where to put the blame for heated discussion of delaminated hull: at manufacturers of the hull or at participants of the discussion?

Because I think it's pretty obvious thing down deep. Surely those who talk are to blame. There are little to none honest people who are legitimately scared of ships falling apart on them in high seas among these rabble-rousers, no doubt here: all of'em are agents of evil forces diligently working on tarnishing reputations and driving companies out of business.

The only problem is, unfortunatelly, in this era of speed-of-light information dissemination via optical cables, it's really hard to stop it, so there is little practical point in applying such blame.

Still more sensible thing then imagining that the manufacturer could be somehow responsible for its public image. Now that would be absurd, and anyone thinking like it is, at best, lunatic, and at worst himself one of abovementioned agents of evil forces diligently working on tarnishing reputations and driving... well you got the point.

[Luckystar99]

Viking came out with one great PR story on this new Vik hitting a whale and delaminating the hull. Written by the Capt. it went away in record time. That was one whale of a PR story.

[NYCAP123]

If I'm still having some of it right, the question is where to put the blame for heated discussion of delaminated hull: at manufacturers of the hull or at participants of the discussion?

Actually, the subject question is whether the captain sank the boat or the boat sank itself, and we're still waiting word from the involved parties where the fault lies.....or actually, we're not.

[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

However, the bashing and unsubstantiated rumoring that has gone on here will cost investors, plant workers and anybody trying to sell a used Bertram. Doesn't quite seem fair, but I guess some just find it fun tarnishing reputations or maybe some are just trying to drive more American marine manufacturing businesses out.

Have to disagree with you regarding bashing or speculation. With the exception of one or two posts, what I've seen is an intelligent conversation by some very well-versed people; all of whom seem most interested in a fair conclusion.

While it's obvious to some and not so much to others, the answers that everyone seeks are contained within the discussion thread and specifically... within the 'detail' pictures of the laminate itself. Readers can draw their own conclusions.

[Adad]

Quote: The adage "A picture is worth a thousand words" refers to the idea that complex stories can be described with just a single still image, or that an image may be more influential than a substantial amount of text.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

.
And how many times have we seen boat manufacturers put out press releases saying their boats a structurally unsound?

Far too seldom.

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

I must have missed them. Auto manufacturers did it only because of Ralph Nader and because it's hard to ignore, or deal with on a case by case basis, problems that affect thousands of every-day people.

You're doing an exceptional job of proving my point. Today there isn't as pressing a need for Ralph Nader because the manufacturers of product can't so easily manipulate the spread of information (or disinformation, or rumors) with the threat of pulling ad dollars. The rich guys and poor guys have equal access to information via the internet so the savvy _____ builder uses whatever delivery method possible to stay ahead of the rumors and disinformation by putting forth truthful information that paints themself in the best light possible.

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

The problem talked about here affects less than a handful of rich guys (actually only one that's been documented so far). However, the bashing and unsubstantiated rumoring that has gone on here will cost investors, plant workers and anybody trying to sell a used Bertram.

I've noticed you never shy away from a good class warfare opportunity, but self warfare? Does the problem affect less than a handful of rich guys, or does the problem affect investors, plant workers, and anybody trying to sell a used Bertram? The rumors are a byproduct of the problem, not the cause of the problem. You don't have these specific rumors when there is not some underlying issue going unaddressed. Public relations exists specifically to address handling and dissemination of news and information - good, bad, or indifferent.

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

Doesn't quite seem fair, but I guess some just find it fun tarnishing reputations or maybe some are just trying to drive more American marine manufacturing businesses out. Like I've said before, let's put this in a seperate thread and go after all manufacturers with pictures and facts.

Virtually nobody here seems to be relishing in tearing down the reputation of a storied boat builder. The fallout of another business loss extends well beyond that yard, to the manufacturers of systems, to the manufacturers of components for those systems, to lumberyards, to foundries, to textile workers, etc. ad nauseum. It does not appear to me that anyone is cheerleading that effort, and posting speculation about one or more boats isn't brand bashing but questioning a series of what appear, increasingly, to be related issues symptomatic of a greater problem. Since when is calling for the truth, "bashing?" (Please do not turn this question into a political discussion.) It certainly isn't fair that a boatyard is judged by the work it puts out, nor that automakers are judged by the cars they build, nor that tv manufacturers are judged by the quality of their picture, nor that pitchers are judged by how many strikes they throw, nor that captains are judged by how well they dock, nor that golfers are judged by what they do in their private lives rather than on the course but that's the crazy world we live in. People and businesses are judged by how well they perform.

How they are judged often has as much to do with how they conduct themselves and how they handle information and reactions to information leaks.

Bertram needs a good PR department, and they need it yesterday.

[SHAZAM]

Originally Posted by 84far

SHAZAM!... I wouldn’t mind seeing those pics..... i think. it will hurt bertram by the sound of it.

far

Sure it will, that's why I haven't posted.

Originally Posted by 84far

also, would it be the right thing to do for Ferretti to sell Bertram off...? i mean there driving the name into the ground with, what seems to be, poor choices in material/application...? or at least slow the production down and get there #### sorted...

far

I was told that Ferretti is actively trying to sell the company as well as the real estate. I was sent a brochure on the property nearly 8 months ago from CB Richard Ellis and even went so far as to make an offer on part of the property but this news that I heard today about the company being sold today was a shocker.

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

You should also accept the invitation to promote your product. It may help us understand why your posts have been so critical of Betram. If you're a boat builder and attack another you have an ethical obligation to expose any potential bias. That way your post can be given the proper weight. Otherwise it sounds like you're just trying to hurt the competition with rumor.

Forget my posts for a moment as a "builder" and consider my posts from the perspective of a Bertram owner, I have owned the following bertram products:

1- 1981 42' Bertram
2- 1984 46' Bertram
3- 1983 54' Bertram
4- 1985 54' Bertram
5- 1992 60' Bertram
6- 1996 30' Bertram

As a former and current Bertram owner, I can speak to the current state of the company as well as the build quality of the vessels they build today.

As far as my knowledge of lamination and coring materials, forget it. Disregard everything that I've said and ask Merritt Marine supply, Ashland, Fiberglass Coatings Inc, etc why they stopped carrying the coring material that bertram has used in the vessels that have fallen apart. Besides the fact that the subcontractor that laminated the boats had no experience in lamination, he had no idea whatsoever on how to use coring properly. I'll post up some photos in a moment, forgive me as I have them scattered through three different computers and two different cameras.

[SHAZAM]

Once again, disregard what I do for a living, assume I have no credibility whatsoever. Let's begin with this fairly innocuous void that was found in the laminate of this near new 450 Bertram...

[SHAZAM]

What's the big deal you say? What we're looking at is the molded in step at the stern of the vessel on the stbd side just below the transom door. After all, anyone whose done any lamination can tell you that a part like this may be difficult to laminate and that there may be a bubble or two in the laminate if its not rolled out properly. What this little void did though was trigger the owner of the vessel to hire a surveyor who sounded out the hull which revealed over 90 other voids in the hull below the water line. That's bad news.

But here is a perfect example of the people laminating the parts for Bertram not knowing what the hell they're doing...

[SHAZAM]

For the astute among you, do you recognize the core material? We've seen it before on this forum. Does anyone remember me saying something about the core used here "outgassing"? That's precisely what's happened here, after lamination the core continued to cure and "outgass" causing the voids throughout the hull to develop. Worse still the core should NEVER HAVE BEEN INSTALLED BELOW THE WATERLINE! IMO the proper core installation in a pleasure boat hull should start 6" above the waterline, the overlap of the laminate in the chine area from the hull sides and the bottom more than compensates for the lack of core from the chine to where the core SHOULD start above the waterline.

Again, forget my credibility or what I may or may not do for a living, look at the photos and use common sense to decipher what's in the photos. Digest what I've posted and if you guys are still interested, tomorrow we'll look at a NEW 570 sitting on the production line.