Click for MCC
Click for Ocean Alexander
Click for Horizon
Click for Llebroc
Click for Lurssen
Click for Walker
Go Back   YachtForums.Com > YACHT & BOAT FORUMS > SportFish Yachts > Bertram Yacht > Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram 63'...

Login to YachtForums
Username
Password

Closed Thread

Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram 63'...

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-27-2009, 12:16 AM   #46 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kaipara Harbour
Posts: 108
I think that the 54 Hatteras convertible is cored with foam from the chines up and has cored stringers which is perhaps a normal concept worldwide these days given that it is a realistic way of achieving significant weight savings yet maintaining impact resistance without using Kelvar or something more exotic in the forward under hull sections.

By the way, a wealthy Floridian had a 90' Robert Ullberg S/F design built by Vaudrey Miller with a lot of carbon fibre in it (and a superyacht interior) and the name was reputed to be "Satu". Must be a very shy owner because there has been total silence from the designer and builder about it for some time. Was to have been launched last year - has anyone seen or heard of it?
Blair is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 07:50 AM   #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: wilmington, nc
Posts: 3
Sys Sussmans Bertram

The Bertram is the 63' "Certifiable" out of Palm Beach. Owned by Syd Sussman an avid tournament fisherman and nice guy might I add. Event happened two weeks ago while fishing a sailfish tournament in Palm Beach.
steveg is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 08:52 AM   #48 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 5,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveg
The Bertram is the 63' "Certifiable" out of Palm Beach. Owned by Syd Sussman an avid tournament fisherman and nice guy might I add. Event happened two weeks ago while fishing a sailfish tournament in Palm Beach.
I would be certifiable too, if that happened to my sportfish. hehehe

Where is the boat located now?


On another note with the Feretti wearing through with hurricane damage. If they don't encapsilate the core with enough layers of glass because they're trying to save weight and money, it doesn't take much to wear through the outer fiberglass layer (with a piling or similar). Then once you do that, the fiberglass being more flexible (if it's not thick enough/enough layers of matting) then the core will peel right off easily once you get underneath it. If there are enough layers of fiberglass outside of the core, the fiberglass is thick enough to be more rigid and flexes less, so it won't peel off of the core as easily. Like when you start prying under two pieces that have been 5200 together. If you can get leverage with a putty knife/screwdriver etc. then you can pry them apart easier........Like on this Bertram pic, see how it's an entire sheet of it, but if you look closely at the pics, the fiberglass sheet does not appear to be very thick at all.....maybe two layers of matting.

Sort of like Think of how flexible formica is and how you could wear through it or bend it and break it. If it is glued to plywood, then it is strong and durable. But once an edge starts lifting from the plywood, it doesn't take much to just chip the formica off.

Last edited by Capt J; 01-27-2009 at 09:25 AM..
Capt J is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:19 AM   #49 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
On another note with the Feretti wearing through with hurricane damage.
Sounds like you've dealt with a warranty department.
NYCAP123 is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 02:17 PM   #50 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
CODOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bournemouth, southern England
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
nor would anyone seriously consider adding the extra weight that a solid laminate requires in a larger vessel when you can save HP, fuel and thereby space etc with a decently engineered cored laminate
Are you sure ? A sweeping statement indeed....hull structure is just one of hundreds of factors considered when designing a composite yacht. Taking hull structure in isolation, there are many factors to consider when choosing between a cored and monolithic laminate. Too many to get into here, but considerations such as impact strength, durability, additional 'free stiffening' (by that I mean the longitudinals, bulkheads and tank structure that are required on larger craft and may as well be used as part of the shell stiffening and panel breakers) all the way through to perceived quality and inherent strength demanded by a loyal customer base (yes, some customers will NOT buy cored bottomed boats) will not always result in a cored bottom being the best option.
Cored laminates have their uses absolutely, but they are not a structural specification default by any means.
CODOG is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:03 PM   #51 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kaipara Harbour
Posts: 108
Yes, it was a sweeping statement but I guess that the S/F market expecting 40+ knots in the US, the builders have to be looking at every weight saving they can achieve to compensate for the larger engines and tankage required for achieving that speed. Obviously at 40+ knots the water itself becomes pretty solid to hit let alone risk of flotsam. Sea swell states offshore here in NZ average at probably 1.5 metres and up to 3 metres, often shortened up by wind v currents etc., so much more than 25 knots cruise is largely irrelevant locally unless you want your teeth to fall out, irrespective as how heavy/light the boat is.
Blair is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:12 PM   #52 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dockboy93's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: -
Posts: 81
I was at the Bertram factory a few years back and was very unimpressed. Everything you can not see in their boats seemed to be done very sloppy and they liked to hide things so that when there is a problem there is not shot at getting there to fix it. Also the way they made the interiors scarred me because all they used was thin plywood to hold up the walls. Common Bertram you should be able to built a boat that rivals others made around he world.

dockboy93 is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:59 PM   #53 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,531
Speed, price and a fancy salon. Do you mean to say there is something else important in a yacht. What do you mean "flotsam"? If a boat hits something doing 70kts doesn't it just push it out of the way? If I have a bunch of money and can drive a Ferrari what do I need a captain for? Yacht warranties cover everything from 'front' to 'back' don't they? I mean the company is depending on me buying their brand in the future so they'll stand behind it right? 2009/2010 are going to be opening a lot of eyes and surprising a lot of people. Someone mentioned Richard Bertram earlier. I dare say he wouldn't like where this business has gone recently. Quality?
NYCAP123 is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 07:09 PM   #54 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kaipara Harbour
Posts: 108
Overall, I think it is a bit ironic that the modern technologies that, in most cases, had there origins in the US are poorly used by some builders there. Maybe the training of US boatbuilders in recent years has failed to meet the needs of the modern industry and demands made of designs? It's probably symtomatic that Team Oracle is just completing its composite build facility in Warkworth, NZ - albeit that their new America's Cup yachts will have to be finished in the States in order to meet the (somewhat bent) rules of manufacturing origin. Not just the exotic race yacht business, the amount of subcontracting that goes on here for US and European high-end boatbuilders has grown to be quite significant let alone the compelete builds of custom vessels, including superyachts and tenders.

Even so, it would be sad to see a name like Bertram go down the proverbial due to poor quality. Shouldn't happen.
Blair is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 08:46 PM   #55 (permalink)
Publisher/Admin
 
YachtForums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Florida
Posts: 17,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt J
I have run more then a few different cored hulls. In comparison to solid fiberglass, they suck. They're noisy, they transmit pounding throughout the entire boat...
Capt. J,

I find your comments about cored hulls fairly misconceived. Are you even *vaguely* familiar with the processes of stress, fracture and torsional testing that takes place by composite manufacturers? Have you any idea how extensively composite laminates are used in sound insulation? Did you ever wonder… if composites are so inferior, why are most builders using them?

About the only thing that resonates better than solid glass… is a wine glass. And guess what? They both fracture.

Please, let's leave opinions on the side line and put expertise on the field.
YachtForums is online now  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:23 PM   #56 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Manny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 159
Boats are just not built like they were used to...

even the boats from the 80's seem to be lasting longer than the modern ones IMO. simple observation....
Manny is offline  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:01 AM   #57 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2
Bertram Yacht's Response- 630

Based on the information presently available and evaluations made to date by Bertram, the situation with the 630 is an isolated problem unique to that particular boat and does not represent a systemic problem in design or construction present on other 630 hulls.

Jiannina Castro
Marketing & Communications
Bertram Yacht
bertram09 is offline  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:03 AM   #58 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2
Bertram Yacht's Response- 540

Bertram fully understands that everyone will have their own opinion about our boats and we welcome the passionate debate. We do, however feel that, the opinions should reflect the facts.

The new Bertram 540 was indeed a successful hull from the earlier years, however it was built from a new mold and the design was engineered with the same philosophy of providing the best ride in the sport fishing industry. The boat has been trialed by many enthusiasts and esteemed editors, but we welcome anyone that doubts our ride to experience it themselves. The front windshield that was addressed in the Yacht Forum was a temporary prototype that was displayed in the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show, which was communicated openly at our press event during the show. Furthermore, the engines listed in the article were incorrect, as they are actually twin Cat-32s. The B540 will be on display at the upcoming Miami Boat Show for all those who wish to see her.

Jiannina Castro
Marketing & Communications
Bertram Yacht
bertram09 is offline  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:06 AM   #59 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCAP123
Feretti is American?
Hull is laid in America. Interiors come from Italy. Feretti Group is an Italian company that is part owned by a English investment group.
Lrgyot is offline  
Old 01-28-2009, 10:02 AM   #60 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt.does
Hull is laid in America. Interiors come from Italy. Feretti Group is an Italian company that is part owned by a English investment group.
Yeah, I know.
NYCAP123 is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (1 members and 1 guests)
Danvilletim
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are EST. The time now is 03:04 AM.

Click for Horizon
Click for Alexseal
Click for Dockwise
Click for Pacific Mariner
Click for McConaghy
Click for Nordhavn


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2