[Capt J]

Originally Posted by K1W1

Hi,

Isn't a cold molded boat actually a wooden boat?

Yes, the wood is used as a core and then coated with layers of epoxy so the wood is sealed inside epoxy both on the outside of the hull and the inside. It's kind of like fiberglass in terms of maintanence.

[SHAZAM!]

Originally Posted by YachtForums

I sea-trialed the new 540 Bert last month and subsequently declined to do a feature on the boat. The boat was fast, very fast! 42 knots to be exact. But, it was a very wet ride. It was evident that neither Bertram, nor the design bureau of Zuccon International had done their sub-surface homework. This boat needed spray rails, or at the very least, reversed chines.

And there were other issues. The much noted Taylor-Made ‘wrap-around’ windows didn’t match the curvature of the superstructure. The edges actually poked-out. Worse, Bertram is using the using old-school method of smearing the gaps between the windows with silicone rubber. It’s only a matter of time and ultra-violet exposure before this material degrades and the windows become a liability, not just a leak, when a wave crashes over the bow.

There were some other fit and finish issues, including irregularities, age-old appendage molds and some everyday, common sense things that would become long term headaches. So many in fact, that I told their marketing people that if Dick Bertram was alive today, heads would roll. Realizing my comments would sever any support, press releases or sea trial privileges in the future, I believe the liability of misleading our readers would be greater.

That said, the boat was still impressively fast. Of course, if you put 1200hp MAN’s into anything that floats, you’re gonna fly. The interior was top notch with good joinery and finish, although it is not built by Bertram, it is sub-contracted. Mechanically, the boat had all the right equipment, but the machinery is only as good as its foundation. Without the security of the legendary Bertram lay-up underneath you, the ship’s systems are meaningless.

Here are some pics from the sea trial...

1. Seam is already beginning to degrade.
2. Sloppy seam around windows.
3. View from salon shows how wet the ride was.

I was on the prototype as well. You forget to mention the boat doesn't turn at speed (it just lays over on one side) and that at speed in straight line it porpoises to the point of madness. This isn't the first 63 to suffer lamination issues, there have been several more (including the first 63 Moppie which ripped one of the engines off the stringers), this is just the first one that the factory wasn't able to cover up. I also wouldn't lay the blame with the Ferretti ownership, Bertrams have been built like crap for years. I have a 1995 30 Moppie whose hull sides are cored with balsa, this would be fine if the factory had properly treated the areas of the hull side that they penetrated (vents, thru hulls etc), but since they didn't literally the entire hull sides are full of rotted nasty old balsa. You would think they would have learned after the disaster with the 72! Essentially IMO Bertram has been operating in some form of financial distress since the early 90's, when operating under those circumstances its hard to keep quality control where it should be. Since the Ferretti ownership they've done nothing but build designs that their target audience doesn't care for (the sales figures prove my point) and using questionable engineering which basically try to emulate motor yacht thinking into a sportfisherman. Perfect example is the poster who said the 57 was a wet ride, that would be hard to believe considering the 57 is the old Napier designed 54 stretched 3 feet, but with Zuccon groups styling and that goofy forward mounted fuel tank, they've managed to move the LCG forward enough to ruin the boats ride!

IMO its time for an ownership (and ideology change) at bertram otherwise they will end up going the way of other old great names (IE Chris Craft)...

[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by SHAZAM!

I was on the prototype as well. You forget to mention the boat doesn't turn at speed (it just lays over on one side) and that at speed in straight line it porpoises to the point of madness.

I experienced NO porpoising. The boat ran properly trimmed. As for turning... we entered a high speed, 180 degree hard turn inside Government Cut at around 30 knots that was completely uneventful. I had NO problem with the handling of the boat. However, I heard through the grapevine that it's larger sibling, the 67', was a pogo stick. Can't confirm, wasn't there.

I need to divulge something... Dick Bertram was a friend of the family. So was Moppie. If he was alive today to see this non-sense, it would become a non-issue. Dick was instrumental in guiding me toward a career in Naval development. He introduced me to Frank Denison and Jack Hargrave. Because of this, I feel a certain kinship... responsibility if you will... to speak up because he can't.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by SHAZAM!

I was on the prototype as well. You forget to mention the boat doesn't turn at speed (it just lays over on one side) and that at speed in straight line it porpoises to the point of madness. This isn't the first 63 to suffer lamination issues, there have been several more (including the first 63 Moppie which ripped one of the engines off the stringers), this is just the first one that the factory wasn't able to cover up. I also wouldn't lay the blame with the Ferretti ownership, Bertrams have been built like crap for years. I have a 1995 30 Moppie whose hull sides are cored with balsa, this would be fine if the factory had properly treated the areas of the hull side that they penetrated (vents, thru hulls etc), but since they didn't literally the entire hull sides are full of rotted nasty old balsa. You would think they would have learned after the disaster with the 72! Essentially IMO Bertram has been operating in some form of financial distress since the early 90's, when operating under those circumstances its hard to keep quality control where it should be. Since the Ferretti ownership they've done nothing but build designs that their target audience doesn't care for (the sales figures prove my point) and using questionable engineering which basically try to emulate motor yacht thinking into a sportfisherman. Perfect example is the poster who said the 57 was a wet ride, that would be hard to believe considering the 57 is the old Napier designed 54 stretched 3 feet, but with Zuccon groups styling and that goofy forward mounted fuel tank, they've managed to move the LCG forward enough to ruin the boats ride!

IMO its time for an ownership (and ideology change) at bertram otherwise they will end up going the way of other old great names (IE Chris Craft)...

I totally agree with this, not to mention some other wonderful features on the 57' Bertram

1. I'm 6'3 and there wasn't a bed on the boat (including the master) that my ankles didn't hang off of.

2. The dinette table was mounted so close that it pressed against my stomach and I am 225lbs. The owner couldn't get into it at all.

3. The companion seat, there wasn't enough room between the steering wheel and helm seat, or the helm seat and back bar on the FB for the owner to squeeze by to get to the companion seat. I could hardly wiggle past the steering wheel to run the boat myself.

4. ALL of the bulkhead to stringer tabbing broke loose. The bow pulpit also was cracking where it met the hull. The largest sea I had the boat in was 5'. The joinery from both doors in the salon head to the ceiling cracked from frame to ceiling.

5. The boat was a 2005 (new at the time) and had a standard 27" TV in the salon and a standard 13" TV in the master.

6. The 1700 gallon fuel tank mounted in front of the engine room, and 300 gallon waste tank mounted foward of that DID cause the boat to be totally bow heavy and mess up the center of gravity

7. The boat never raised FISH, ever trolling. Also the wash was horrible.

8. The size of the fish box was a total joke.

9. Everytime you flushed a head, the lights dimmed throughout the entire boat.

10. The Racor's were mounted below the fuel tank level so if there was ever a fuel leak anywhere, any of the lines or fittings, it would gravity fill the entire boat.

11. The cockpit was very wide, but short, so if you had a fullsize chair in it you could hardly get past it.

12. Rod storage was non-existant.

A 61' Viking made this thing look like a Bayliner.

[SHAZAM!]

Originally Posted by Capt J

A 61' Viking made this thing look like a Bayliner.

My take on the ferretti built sportfisherman is very simple. The SF guy is IMO a meat and potatoes kind of guy. The boat is to look a certain way, notice how even a new viking looks like its an evolution of the boat that came before it? Compare that to the Ferretti bertram or even the late model Hatteras SF's that literally look like they were squeezed through someones ass! Steak is real simple, but when I go out to one of the "hip" new restaurants and order steak I end up getting steak with caramelized onions drizzled with a fennel reduction and a side of mashed butternut squash. YUCK! ALL I WANTED WAS STEAK! Keep it simple, don't try to reinvent the wheel. When I see the new 54 all I see is whats wrong with Bertram, interior layouts that have never worked (aft galley), machinery layouts that make no sense and styling THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT BELONG ON A TRADITIONAL AMERICAN SPORT FISH!

Ferrettis global head of engineering (Andrea Frabetti) told me in 1999 that it was their intention within the next 3 years to completely eliminate all the Napier designed hulls (basically the hulls the company had built their reputation on) and introduce the "superior" Ferretti hull design. So much for the "superior" hull design, look at the bottom of the new 54 and then take a look at the bottom of a new 50+ sea ray. Simply laughable. It seems to me that the Italians have a certain disdain for what the traditional bertram buyer wants, even before the economy tanked, the domestic market basically rejected the new bertram products (there are still new 2006 boats in stock at dealers), so who exactly are they designing these boats for?

[SHAZAM!]

Originally Posted by YachtForums

I experienced NO porpoising. The boat ran properly trimmed. As for turning... we entered a high speed, 180 degree hard turn inside Government Cut at around 30 knots that was completely uneventful.

That must have been after the third or fourth set of rudders. The initial sea trials before the lauderdale show were horrible, the boat would bank into the turn then just lay on its side. Here's a peek at that wonderful bottom...

[Capt J]

I can see exactly how that boat can lay on one side of the keel in a turn and the keel looks a bit wide , there isn't enough flat area in the stern IMO. Why wouldn't they re-use the origional 54' hull with newer lines? It rode great, was very fast, and great. (I ran a 54' with a hardtop with 12v71's that had 4600 origional hours and it ran 30 knots at 1850 rpms.)

It's like the first 58' HATT SF's way back, they were so bad you'd literally have to tie yourself to the tower or the boat would eject you in a beam sea. Then they added that chine that runs along the entire hull side to fix it.

[RER]

Did you mean 53' HATT SF?

[SHAZAM!]

Originally Posted by Capt J

Why wouldn't they re-use the origional 54' hull with newer lines? It rode great, was very fast, and great. (I ran a 54' with a hardtop with 12v71's that had 4600 origional hours and it ran 30 knots at 1850 rpms.)

Please refer to paragraph two of post 44.

[Jorge Lang]

So getting back to this 63', what has happened to it?

[Blair]

Originally Posted by Pascal

so does fiberglass, real fiberglass... as in solid non cored fiberglass... and really requires no maintenance.

Maybe I am naive but I reckon modern layups involving cores done according to spec are as reliable as anything else really. No one builds a race boat out of solid fibreglass these days nor would anyone seriously consider adding the extra weight that a solid laminate requires in a larger vessel when you can save HP, fuel and thereby space etc with a decently engineered cored laminate. It seems almost incomprehensible that a Group like Ferretti couldn't get it right in terms of design but perhaps more explicable that their Bertram manufacturing quality assurance has regressed to be somewhat woeful as people at YF are saying. My smallish fishing boat I have at the beach place is a US design and build which I appreciate in many ways but again the quality compromises, unnecessary weight and poor fairing/moulding and crap detailing leaves me p'ed off rather a lot. I think it was a lot of boat for its money but quite a poor comparison in terms of quality with locally built plastic boats.

Maybe wrongly, but I get an impression that the US is some years behind in terms of layup design/build techniques - is this due to volume production building not inviting the innovation and improvement that more custom or low volume building offers as in smaller countries? What happened to an expensive vessel like the 63' Bertram exampled is tragic though, especially in a tough market. Ferretti will need to react tout suite.

[Pascal]

the requirements of a racing boat are not the same as a sportfish... cant' compare them.

as much as i dont' want to start a US vs the World boat building debate, Bertram hulls, pre Ferretti, were bulletproof. This is is not the case anymore.

as to Ferretti quality, while i understand that you can't judge a builder on a single boat and that things change quickly, the pictures of the Ferretti MY which i posted on the first page also reveal a problem. Sure this is hurricane damage but you can see a coring and lamination failure. See how the hull failed with very little rubbing damage, few scratches and gouning typical of hurricane damage. There were other damaged boat in the marina,incl. a few older berts and hatts, and you could see how long they rubbed against piling.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Blair

Maybe I am naive but I reckon modern layups involving cores done according to spec are as reliable as anything else really. No one builds a race boat out of solid fibreglass these days nor would anyone seriously consider adding the extra weight that a solid laminate requires in a larger vessel when you can save HP, fuel and thereby space etc with a decently engineered cored laminate. It seems almost incomprehensible that a Group like Ferretti couldn't get it right in terms of design but perhaps more explicable that their Bertram manufacturing quality assurance has regressed to be somewhat woeful as people at YF are saying. My smallish fishing boat I have at the beach place is a US design and build which I appreciate in many ways but again the quality compromises, unnecessary weight and poor fairing/moulding and crap detailing leaves me p'ed off rather a lot. I think it was a lot of boat for its money but quite a poor comparison in terms of quality with locally built plastic boats.

Maybe wrongly, but I get an impression that the US is some years behind in terms of layup design/build techniques - is this due to volume production building not inviting the innovation and improvement that more custom or low volume building offers as in smaller countries? What happened to an expensive vessel like the 63' Bertram exampled is tragic though, especially in a tough market. Ferretti will need to react tout suite.

I have run more then a few different cored hulls. In comparison to solid fiberglass, they suck. They're noisy, they transmit pounding throughout the entire boat, I haven't seen where the weight savings have made them faster then a non cored vessel (such as a Sportfish), you can't run them in the same sea as non-cored vessel without slowing down (they just don't ride as nice), one improperly sealed hole below the waterline and you have a HUGE mess to fix.

Give me solid fiberglass with strength and save the coring for the decks, not the hull.

[Blair]

Note your point about leaks into the core. I guess that's partly what concerns me. Basic build specs requires any apperture in a cored hull - whether it be in a boat, airliner or a racing car to be supported by a surrounding solid section to take the compression of a fitting. I think also would be against the laws of physics to not gain something from less weight - whether smaller engines for the same performance or more performance from the same engines.

My limited experience is that carbon fibre lamination is pretty noisy (it's relatively thin of course although quite uncommon due to expense) but most other laminations with a core [whether using wood (balsa or cold moulded, strip cedar etc) or a synthetic foam] as used in sports fishers and other similar vessels are largely indistinguishable in terms of running noise transmission - sometimes quieter. Fuel prices, if anything, will probably dictate more acceptance of lighter boats than many currently sold in the US but of course they have to be of quality construction.

I do agree that a heavy boat often has a softer motion (compared to that of a light but similarly shaped hull) but that comes at a higher cost of more HP and fuel etc. The same effect with a light v heavy car or aircraft too when I think about it.

[Capt J]

Originally Posted by Blair

Note your point about leaks into the core. I guess that's partly what concerns me. Basic build specs requires any apperture in a cored hull - whether it be in a boat, airliner or a racing car to be supported by a surrounding solid section to take the compression of a fitting. I think also would be against the laws of physics to not gain something from less weight - whether smaller engines for the same performance or more performance from the same engines.

My limited experience is that carbon fibre lamination is pretty noisy (it's relatively thin of course although quite uncommon due to expense) but most other laminations with a core [whether using wood (balsa or cold moulded, strip cedar etc) or a synthetic foam] as used in sports fishers and other similar vessels are largely indistinguishable in terms of running noise transmission - sometimes quieter. Fuel prices, if anything, will probably dictate more acceptance of lighter boats than many currently sold in the US but of course they have to be of quality construction.

I do agree that a heavy boat often has a softer motion (compared to that of a light but similarly shaped hull) but that comes at a higher cost of more HP and fuel etc. The same effect with a light v heavy car or aircraft too when I think about it.

The boats I have seen that were cored, were sometimes faster. BUT, you could not run them as fast in any type of sea as a solid fiberglass boat. Hull design has more of an effect on speed then a cored hull. For example, I was told that Cabo saved 5,000 lbs by going with a cored hull over a solid glass hull on the 52' express. Well to be honest with you, the boat does the same exact speed (within 0.2 knots) if you have 9,500lbs of fuel on board or if you have 2,000lbs of fuel on board. So did that cored hull weight savings make the boat any faster? I have also seen every cored hull boat slow down considerably as it ages, they always seem to get heavier as years go by.

For example a 54' Hatteras SF with a solid hull will cruise at 33-34 knots with C 30 cats. The 52' Cabo Express with C30 cats (with the express being lighter with less wind resistance to start with) cruises at 35 knots. Searay went from cored hulls back to Solid Fiberglass hulls for a reason.

Speaking of Carbon Fiber, Revenge built a 58' SF out of Carbon Fiber in 1987 and produced 3 of them. All 3 origional owners still own them 22 years later. I know one of them with a huge tuna tower "Cookie Too", 1100hp Common Rails does almost 50 knots supposedly. The owner went from 1300 mans and repowered with 1100 Common Rails because it was just plain too fast with the 1300's. Thats the way to go if money is no issue and you want strength and speed. I hear they are producing them again.

Cold molded sportfishes are VERY quiet running, even more quiet then solid fiberglass. Wood absorbs a lot of pounding and noise compared to other cores such as dyvinicel. I think divynicel is a great product to use for decks, and the house of the SF in place of marine plywood. But I would much rather have a solid glass hull with stringers.