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Bertram 50 repower

 
 
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Old 12-21-2008, 02:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Bertram 50 repower

Hello to everyone, I am looking forward to buy a Bertram 50 with 8V92 (engines are dead) I have two options: or buy a reman 8v92's or change engines for a newer ones (also Reman)...Does anyone knows:
1.- Who sells 8v92 DD re-manufactures in the US ?
2.- Wich options I have with other engine brand ?
3.- If I go with a newer engine, wich type of transmission do I have to use..? and wich is the best HP to go...?

thanks to everyone in advance for all your help....

David
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappiros
Hello to everyone, I am looking forward to buy a Bertram 50 with 8V92 (engines are dead) I have two options: or buy a reman 8v92's or change engines for a newer ones (also Reman)...Does anyone knows:
1.- Who sells 8v92 DD re-manufactures in the US ?
2.- Wich options I have with other engine brand ?
3.- If I go with a newer engine, wich type of transmission do I have to use..? and wich is the best HP to go...?

thanks to everyone in advance for all your help....

David
You're going to either want someone to rebuild your engines. I wouldn't recommend that as everyone I've known have had to rebuild 8v92's at around 2000hrs in sportfish. It is your cheapest option, but the 8v92's are crude and the current DD rebuild parts are not the same quality they used to be (mainly reliabilt injectors and liners).

The DD series60's are a great replacement for what you've got and you might be able to use the same gears but they are not going to be selling them after 2010.

I would recommend appropriate sized CAT's. They are a nice fit and have a lot of torque. I'd put C18 CATs or C12's if you're looking for less HP. You can also get parts easily for CATS and service easily.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Someone here is on drugs.

Number One: if Detroit Diesel Reliabilt parts carry a One Year Warranty as opposed to the New Parts Six Month Warrantee for New Parts (when they were making them, if they still are), what does that say about quality?
Number Two: The engine option for the B50 was the 10-cylinder MAN @820 HP: lighter weight, more HP.
Number Three: Price out the replacement engine package and multiply by TWO (yes, TWO) to approximate the final repower cost.
Number Four: Gold Coast sells re-man'ed Detroits.

A Distant Number Five: there is a lot of crap advice tendered on these threads.
Caveat Emptor.

Good luck, Daveed.
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Loren Schweizer
Someone here is on drugs.

Number One: if Detroit Diesel Reliabilt parts carry a One Year Warranty as opposed to the New Parts Six Month Warrantee for New Parts (when they were making them, if they still are), what does that say about quality?
Number Two: The engine option for the B50 was the 10-cylinder MAN @820 HP: lighter weight, more HP.
Number Three: Price out the replacement engine package and multiply by TWO (yes, TWO) to approximate the final repower cost.
Number Four: Gold Coast sells re-man'ed Detroits.

A Distant Number Five: there is a lot of crap advice tendered on these threads.
Caveat Emptor.

Good luck, Daveed.
Welp, I just ran a vessel with 12v71TI's, the port engine was rebuilt by a very reputable large Detroit Diesel dealer. 3 months after the major overhaul and 150hrs later the port engine had a dead cylinder. Detroit Diesel tested both the fuel and oil which were both found to be fine. The owner paid me and a mate daily for 30 days to sit in Virginia and oversee the rebuild as well as dockage and all other expenses. The injector split a tip on #4 and caused the cylinder to wash out. 5 out of 12 Reliabilt injectors were found to be bad by Detroit Diesel of North America and only 3 months old. 4 other cylinders and liners were replaced as they had very unusual scoring and wear marks, and #4 cylinder also had a broken valve seat (reliabilt head). All in all, the owner had to pay the Detroit Diesel factory dealer in Virginia $25,000 with a wire transfer, not credit card for them to release his boat so we could get underway. It took Detroit Diesel over 30 days to re-imburse him and they covered $17,000 and he still ate $8,000 on a warranty rebuild after paying $30,000 for a major overhaul 3 months prior. Those are the facts. And I am not the only one this has happened to. A 1 year warranty on a $30,000 rebuild by a factory dealer is BS, and you only get 6 months labor.

I personally saw a 1998 58' Searay with 982hrs port and 985 hours starboard with ddec 8v92's that had a dead cylinder on each engine and needed rebuilds. The computer had no data related to owner abuse all of the usage was within 80% load.

DD/MTU wants nothing more to do with the old 2 cycle diesels. Parts are becoming harder to find, and technology has passed them by and the quality of the reliabilt injectors are sketchy considering DD/MTU subs out all parts manufacture to the lowest bidder for the 2 cycles.

With brand new CATS you can get 5 years of warranty. Parts are reasonable. And if you are unfortunate and have a failure, 100% of it is covered under warranty and CAT extends your warranty an additional 2 years no questions asked. I have seen this happen with a few people I know personally with mainly 3196's and 3126's as well as a C32 boat. Not to mention CAT has the largest worldwide dealer network of any of the marine engines.
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Capt J
With brand new CATS you can get 5 years of warranty.
And if you are unfortunate and have a failure, 100% of it is covered under warranty and CAT extends your warranty an additional 2 years no questions asked.
Hi,

I think Loren might have a point with his opening statement.

Here you go again with another all encompassing claim that is not fact at all.

You can purchase up to 5 Yrs Extended Warranty on non commercial ( non revenue producing) engines. It does not come free with each engine.

I have not see CAT give an additional 2 yrs warranty gratis on any engine repairs and I have seen some big ones in my time.

You complain about a 1 yr Warranty on a $30K Rebuild- This is the same warranty period for a new CAT in Commercial service without purchasing additional cover.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi,

I think Loren might have a point with his opening statement.

Here you go again with another all encompassing claim that is not fact at all.

You can purchase up to 5 Yrs Extended Warranty on non commercial ( non revenue producing) engines. It does not come free with each engine.

I have not see CAT give an additional 2 yrs warranty gratis on any engine repairs and I have seen some big ones in my time.

You complain about a 1 yr Warranty on a $30K Rebuild- This is the same warranty period for a new CAT in Commercial service without purchasing additional cover.
The statement "you can get 5 years of warranty on a new cat" means it is available, not that it comes with it. I believe on pleasurecraft engines CAT gives 3 year warranties (not sure) or 2 year.......One of those rings a bell. There must be a language barrier here because that is a clear statement that it is available in the United States English Language, it does not mean it comes with it free of charge.

I can understand how a commercial application has only a year of warranty. Commercial applications are generally used daily and accumulate many hours in a year. However, on a recreational application a year on a major overhaul is rather short In my opinion.

CAT gave an additional 2 year warranty on all US recreational boats I know about when they had all of the 3116,3126,3196 recall rebuilds and/or replacements. These occurred many times in Searays. On a buddy's 45' Cabo 1996, hull #1, they lost a motor 2 months out of warranty due to a leaking aftercooler and the motors had 2200 hours on them (3196 660hp), CAT covered complete rebuilds free of charge and gave them 5 years of warranty on the rebuilt engines.

I just did work on a 2000 54' Searay that had new C12's put in it by the dealer 12/07 because one of the 3196's let go. CAT took his old engines, gave the owner the C12's for the price of 1 engine and 5 year warranties with them. That was on 7 year old engines.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi,

The 3116,3126,3196 Series along with the C 9 is not a Chapter in the Caterpillar story that makes good reading for anyone. The factory support has been excellent with these engines to date.

The English language- If you had used the word extended in your blanket statement it would have meant that it was something other than brand new engine warranty which is how it reads to me.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by K1W1
Hi,

The 3116,3126,3196 Series along with the C 9 is not a Chapter in the Caterpillar story that makes good reading for anyone. The factory support has been excellent with these engines to date.

The English language- If you had used the word extended in your blanket statement it would have meant that it was something other than brand new engine warranty which is how it reads to me.
It comes with 5 year warranties would mean it is the brand new engine warranty. "you can get", means it is available but does not come with it. can is a verb or action. you can buy soap. etc. etc.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi,

If I were you, I would be careful about the use of the word can and Caterpillar in the same sentence.

After all you were recently assuring the world that you can get a special break in oil weren't you?
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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CaptJ:

I was unaware that MTU/DDC was subbing out the manufacture of bits like injectors which, yes, probably means a lowering of quality. This is good to know.

As regards warrantees, with, for example, say, Cat: when Bertram Yacht built a boat with Cats (or Detroits, for that matter), Cat offered their standard one-year-parts & labor, two- year-parts warrantee. Detroit came out with something called 'P3' which extended the warrantee to, essentially, five years----2 + 3.
Cat, IIRC, did pretty much the same. These cost money, however....Bertram offered these plans and charged for them...there may have been a year or two where they were "Free", i.e., Bertram paid for them or Cat/Detroit split the cost...and I'm sure the other builders had their own ideas.
So, you can imagine the variances out there--for pleasurecraft---for warrantee time periods.
Just my $.02
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Loren Schweizer
CaptJ:

I was unaware that MTU/DDC was subbing out the manufacture of bits like injectors which, yes, probably means a lowering of quality. This is good to know.

As regards warrantees, with, for example, say, Cat: when Bertram Yacht built a boat with Cats (or Detroits, for that matter), Cat offered their standard one-year-parts & labor, two- year-parts warrantee. Detroit came out with something called 'P3' which extended the warrantee to, essentially, five years----2 + 3.
Cat, IIRC, did pretty much the same. These cost money, however....Bertram offered these plans and charged for them...there may have been a year or two where they were "Free", i.e., Bertram paid for them or Cat/Detroit split the cost...and I'm sure the other builders had their own ideas.
So, you can imagine the variances out there--for pleasurecraft---for warrantee time periods.
Just my $.02
Well in his situation, he lives in South America and has his 50' Bertram there. He has two choices, he could rebuild the 8v92's he has which would be the cheapest route as they can be rebuilt in the boat or buy rebuilt ones and pay to have the boat torn apart and the old engines removed and the rebuilt ones put in. He is going to get a maximum of a year warranty which is questionable as to how much percentage-wise DD/MTU would cover in the case of a failure.

If he went to new CATS he would get new technology, new everything (not rebuilt, but could go with CAT factory remans which might be a good choice and carry good warranties), better fuel economy and more power to weight ratio, and can pay for worldwide 5 year warranty either on new engines or CAT reman engines. The resale value of the vessle would be greater with new engines (whether it be CAT, MAN common rails, or ****) over rebuilt DD's. But it is going to cost a little bit more over exchanging the detroits for rebuilt detroits.

DD/MTU makes very little of their own parts, even on current engines. When they had the 100+ set failures of the early 16v2000's (around 2002-2003), it was because whoever manufactured the piston rings stamped some of them upside down and they were then installed upside down. I was on a 75' Jim Smith SF 2003, that one engine grenaded within 8 months of new and 300hrs along with a 72' Merritt (Dauntless) that the same thing happened to. They had to disassemble half of the new boat to rebuild them. The Reliabilt injectors are rebuilt in Mexico as are many of the other reliabilt parts. Cat manufactures all of their engine parts in-house so they IMO have a tighter control over quality.

All of the manufacturers have had their issues with engine series that have had major problems Cat with the 3116/3126/3196 aftercooler issues etc, DD/MTU with the 16v2000's, MTU with the first 2 generations of 12v183's 1st generations dropped valves, second generations overheated and blew before the alarm even went off if the belts snapped which drove both the freshwater and raw water pump, Man with the first few common rails, as well as the rigid high pressure fuel rail snapping on the earlier 820's,1050's, 1300's, and 1500's. It's how each manufacturer has stepped up to the plate and covered them that counts the most. On the 16v2000 rebuild on the Jim Smith, JT did the rebuild. There was a sunseeker right next to us with the same engines, same year (less then a year old), same grenaded engine and DD/MTU denied them warranty coverage because the oil level was a 1/2" over the full mark and the owner had to pay majorly to have the engine rebuilt. Cabo doesn't offer the Detroit series 60's in the 40' or 45' anymore for warranty reasons.

K1W1- as for the CAT break-in oil comment, I e-mailed your buddy "strat57" the direct phone numbers and name of the Senior Construction Manager of Hatteras, The Director of Operations for Cabo Yachts, and The installing CAT dealer that installs all of Cabo's CAT engines. He hasn't commented otherwise as of yet that my information was not correct including the break-in oil.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It seems to be a well know fact about the lack of quality of the Reliabilt injectors. Every mechanic I know stays away from them.

And I had Detroit replace 24 of 24 rebuilt injectors with new ones on a pair of MTUs in a vessel I was running due to there repeated rapid failure.

I also feel your best bang for the buck is to go with the CATs.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It seems to be a well know fact about the lack of quality of the Reliabilt injectors. Every mechanic I know stays away from them.

And I had Detroit replace 24 of 24 rebuilt injectors with new ones on a pair of MTUs in a vessel I was running due to there repeated rapid failure.

I also feel your best bang for the buck is to go with the CATs.
Yeah, the reliabilt injectors are junk. I have a customer with a 63' Ocean with 12v92's. It went 2600hrs before major overhauls and never once had an issue with the origional injectors. It now has 500hrs since major overhaul (3year smoh) and goes through 2-4 injectors about every 6 months. The problem is that the DD dealers are stuck using the reliabilt injectors for warranty reasons. Everglades diesel in Ft. Laud does a terrific job rebuilding injectors.
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Cat manufactures all of their engine parts in-house so they IMO have a tighter control over quality.
Hi,

The next time you personally rebuild a Caterpillar engine using "genuine parts" please close ya mouth long enough to look over your top lip and see where the country of origin is on the box the parts came in. It can be very educational. They don't make the big bits in house either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt J
K1W1- as for the CAT break-in oil comment, I e-mailed your buddy "strat57" the direct phone numbers and name of the Senior Construction Manager of Hatteras, The Director of Operations for Cabo Yachts, and The installing CAT dealer that installs all of Cabo's CAT engines. He hasn't commented otherwise as of yet that my information was not correct including the break-in oil.
I do not know who the YF Member Strat57 is other than what I see on his profile and from a few things he has written I figure he would have some Engine manufacturer contacts himself.

The fact that he has openly questioned your un substantiated claims about the Break In oil that no CAT Tech or senior member of the organization I have contact with can verify exists is purely co incidental.
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Hi,

The next time you personally rebuild a Caterpillar engine using "genuine parts" please close ya mouth long enough to look over your top lip and see where the country of origin is on the box the parts came in. It can be very educational. They don't make the big bits in house either.





I do not know who the YF Member Strat57 is other than what I see on his profile and from a few things he has written I figure he would have some Engine manufacturer contacts himself.

The fact that he has openly questioned your un substantiated claims about the Break In oil that no CAT Tech or senior member of the organization I have contact with can verify exists is purely co incidental.
I don't rebuild CATS, nor would I rebuild a CAT or anything else. I would prefer to have the dealer do a full rebuild simply for warranty support. Even though I have a few mechanics I use that are excellent and better then most of the guys that work for the dealer.

CAT uses a lighter grade oil. It is not a special oil that they use solely for that purpose, it is simply a lighter grade of an oil they already sell. It also depends on the motor, application, and initial usage area of where the boat will be used. Some do recieve the normal 15w40DEO. Some do recieve something in the 30w range from what I've been told (some 5w-30, some straight 30). I'd be more than happy to foward you the same e-mail I sent him with direct phone numbers for the people that know, and you can do your own research. They happen to include the Sr. Construction Manager for Hatteras, The Director of Operations for Cabo, The CAT installing dealer for all of Cabo's CAT installations.

You have a knack for questioning someone who has spent a lot of time with people who are the head of large organizations in the marine industry. I was the Captain that did the tests with the 2nd set of MAN common rails installed in the US. I spent over a week doing all day sea-trials with the CEO of MAN North America on-board, their two top engineers, and 2 of the head techs from twin disc. This is the boat that they used to program their fuel curves and engine control parameters as well as twin disc programmed their gear pressure curves with. We did things during those tests that I would never EVER do to another persons boat. Just like Cabo is doing right now with their first set of Zues drives. They have over 400 hours on the boat (Cabo Zues)doing just tests, trying to get a failure out of it and there has not been one glitch with it. With 600hp zues, the boat is 1 knot faster then the same boat with MAN 800hp's, it burns 44gph at cruise while the MANs burn 64gph at cruise.
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